Reply to: Metadata and ethics

[mace]

Contracts Direct

Whenever I've got a direct contract (most times by going back to a former client or one I knew from my consultancy days), the client has still insisted that an agent be put in the middle. The reason is that otherwise the client could be held liable for the employer N.I. they're so keen to avoid. Beats me how other contractors have managed to avoid this.

[DBA_bloke]

Should I have given commission to an agent for a job I knew I could get and had already done the groundwork for?

As I was going to St, Ives....

[Bagpuss]

Ok I'll give you an example, 4 years ago I interviewed via Agency A for a contract and got it, budget fell through in the end. The guy gave me his card at the interview.

2 years later agency B phones me up about a contract in <area of company> and describes the exact role I went for 2 years prior. I contact the client via the details he gave me and got the contract (client never had my direct details so couldn't contact me and the original agency had gone bust)

Should I have given commission to an agent for a job I knew I could get and had already done the groundwork for?

[DBA_bloke]

IMHO There's a difference between using information to your advantage and acting unprofessionally. Guessing a client from some selected info isn't the same as agreeing to be put forward and then trying to go direct.

A fine line, though! Maybe I'm just too well brought up!

[Bagpuss]

I do see what you mean, but I (being a complete coward) would be worried about pissing-off somone who, one day, sod's law, would be the very bod I wanted on-side. It's not THAT big a world in IT contracting, especially once you factor-in the sector you work in.

IMHO There's a difference between using information to your advantage and acting unprofessionally. Guessing a client from some selected info isn't the same as agreeing to be put forward and then trying to go direct.

[chef]

Agreed DBA, my niche is very small with only 2 or 3 main VAR/agencies worth speaking with and a whole lot of cowboy pmps around.

It's perfectly plausable that the gig mr UnknownPimp called about was a gig i'd either found out myself (and didnt want the pimp to know he had competition) or else I had already applied for via another agency (and again didnt want to inform the pimp about for the same reason as above).

I suppose it's how well you know your market and personal choice over who you choose to work with and what you tell anyone else. Personally I have my chosen agents I get on very well with, i find work myself whenever possible to ensure i get a bigger cut and with anyone else I keep my cards close to my chest..

Re-answering the initial question honestly, yes i do it all the time and I dont see it will ever cause me harm but it depends on your market and your relationship with the agent in question.

[DBA_bloke]

I do see what you mean, but I (being a complete coward) would be worried about pissing-off somone who, one day, sod's law, would be the very bod I wanted on-side. It's not THAT big a world in IT contracting, especially once you factor-in the sector you work in.

[chef]

Good luck to you, etc. But, do you ever later think "I hope this doesn't come back to haunt me"?

no, never. usual scenario goes as follows:

Hi Chef, this is UnknownPimp, how are you today mate?
<usual pally pally, known you for ages, hows work going?>
There is a role that you'd be ideal for..
<after a few basic q's of who, what, where and dodging of saying how much i'd like and who ive ever worked for>
it's a multinational <quote the clients moto> vague blah blah blah based in xshire
ok, no im not interested thanks (chef opens up google)
types multinational.. etc and location
less than 10 mins investigation later, whaddya know, well known company comes up
chat with mates to see if anyone has a name or knows anyone currently at said gig
call up client ask for resource manager, be nice as pie just to get a name
email tailored cv direct to resource manager or look for other avenues of access

How will the UnknownPimp ever know?
Even if they did find out, what legal bit of paper have i ever signed to say I cant go for the job minus the pimp?
As i said before, if it's an agent i've used before then i will already have a good business relationship with them and i'll use them rather than burn bridges.

If it's a slimy "alright mate", 2kilo's of gel, power suit with fat purple tie teenager who tells me of the job then I have as much right to use my own intelligence and go for the position as he would happily email any half arsed cv he can find in the hope of scoring some well needed cash for his next coke fix or tub of gel.

It's business, i stay this side of the law, pay the taxman, listen to my accountant and always read what i sign but other than that it's business

[DBA_bloke]

A stream of Gold whilst all around is Dark...

GEORGE BERNARD SHAW:
Your Majesty is like a dose of clap.

(gasps)

THE PRINCE OF WALES:
What?!?

GEORGE BERNARD SHAW:
Before you arrive is pleasure, but after is a pain in the dong.

THE PRINCE OF WALES:
I beg your pardon?

GEORGE BERNARD SHAW:
It was one of Wilde's.

OSCAR WILDE:
Wha...

[DBA_bloke]

I've had two direct contracts using information ascertained from agents. It's not different to them getting it from contractors as they often do.

Unsavy agents or contractors have only themselves to blame.

Good luck to you, etc. But, do you ever later think "I hope this doesn't come back to haunt me"?

[Bagpuss]

I've had two direct contracts using information ascertained from agents. It's not different to them getting it from contractors as they often do.

Unsavy agents or contractors have only themselves to blame.

[MrRobin]

I wouldn't recommend this "clever" approach, because it's ... er ... obviously not clever. It could really do you damage.

Yes, I was mainly concerned about this sort of thing. Whilst some clients don't get on much with agents either and also think many of them are money grabbing brylcream investing punks some have good relationships.

Perhaps I should have called this thread metadata and practicality rather than ethics, because there aren't really many problems that side!

[_V_]

I have my doubts as to the accuracy of some of the above "what a clever, clever evil mastermind I've been by out-pimping the pimp" answers. So much dog poo, I bet.

The Client is going to be very feckin' wary about hiring you direct. It'll be so obvious that you've scammed a pimp; and the Client will be thinking of the hellish horror of said scorned pimp threatening action, etc., which no Client wants. Clients often have favourite agencies/pimps; how likely is it that they'd risk pissing them off for a lousy 15-20% saving?

And if (probably when) the pimp realizes what you've done? What then? Going to casually fob him off with a pithy Oscar Wilde quote? A very quick trawl through the hallowed pages of CUK will show that some contractors have been either sued, or threatened with such, by pimps for all manner of "offences", so a piss-take like going direct with their info is a dead cert. Also, pimps, like Contractors, are "fiscal nomads", too. Do you fancy having your name rubbed in the poo across the agencies by an agent you once so "very cleverly" out-pimped?

I wouldn't recommend this "clever" approach, because it's ... er ... obviously not clever. It could really do you damage.

"The client is like a stream of bats piss".

[DBA_bloke]

I have my doubts as to the accuracy of some of the above "what a clever, clever evil mastermind I've been by out-pimping the pimp" answers. So much dog poo, I bet.

The Client is going to be very feckin' wary about hiring you direct. It'll be so obvious that you've scammed a pimp; and the Client will be thinking of the hellish horror of said scorned pimp threatening action, etc., which no Client wants. Clients often have favourite agencies/pimps; how likely is it that they'd risk pissing them off for a lousy 15-20% saving?

And if (probably when) the pimp realizes what you've done? What then? Going to casually fob him off with a pithy Oscar Wilde quote? A very quick trawl through the hallowed pages of CUK will show that some contractors have been either sued, or threatened with such, by pimps for all manner of "offences", so a piss-take like going direct with their info is a dead cert. Also, pimps, like Contractors, are "fiscal nomads", too. Do you fancy having your name rubbed in the poo across the agencies by an agent you once so "very cleverly" out-pimped?

I wouldn't recommend this "clever" approach, because it's ... er ... obviously not clever. It could really do you damage.

[thunderlizard]

shhhhh!

next!