Reply to: finding out how much im being charged out for ?

[Andy2]

That was not my point.
My point was that some contractors think it's not even your business to attempt to find out the rate. Which is clearly wrong. You should always seek to ask for the end rate.

Now you take a risk that the client may get offended and terminate the contract. So, this is an unlikely approach at the start of a contract. However one you have earned maybe one renewal and you get offered your second, maybe it's time you asked with reason given to the client as option 2 (saves them money).

A word of warning though, never reveal your take home to the client, as this leaves you no room to debate the rate privately with the agency. Which can sometimes be the preferred approach.

Of course the client can always say no, but most times I have managed to get the rate from the client in the end.

Now once you have the end rate, this then becomes a different ball game. But as I said some contractors here think you should not even try and find out. That's perm thinking!

Atlast a sensible post

[LazyFan]

That was not my point.
My point was that some contractors think it's not even your business to attempt to find out the rate. Which is clearly wrong. You should always seek to ask for the end rate.

Now you take a risk that the client may get offended and terminate the contract. So, this is an unlikely approach at the start of a contract. However one you have earned maybe one renewal and you get offered your second, maybe it's time you asked with reason given to the client as option 2 (saves them money).

A word of warning though, never reveal your take home to the client, as this leaves you no room to debate the rate privately with the agency. Which can sometimes be the preferred approach.

Of course the client can always say no, but most times I have managed to get the rate from the client in the end.

Now once you have the end rate, this then becomes a different ball game. But as I said some contractors here think you should not even try and find out. That's perm thinking!

[EternalOptimist]

And is that how YOU operate Lazy Fan ?
Do you get the agents margin and other information prior to signing on the dotted line ? It may be a better way to run a business but its not practical. We have all sought the information at renewal time but we also know that the chances of getting the truth are very slim

[Old Greg]

WRONG WRONG WRONG!

I find it strange that many contractors consider themselves to be proper businesses in their own right, but constantly make the same mistake over and over again that "it's nothing to do with you".

Well, my point was that it's confidential between the agent and end-client, not that it's nothing to do with me. The OP who advised asking is right IMO - that's what I did and it's a fixed rate anyway. And if it's confidential and you ask and they decline to tell you, there's nothing you can do.

[LazyFan]

The Bad Business view

WRONG WRONG WRONG!

I find it strange that many contractors consider themselves to be proper businesses in their own right, but constantly make the same mistake over and over again that "it's nothing to do with you".

A real proper business will want to find out what the margins are for many proper business reasons.
Such as:

1) The business can then see if they can squeeze the broker business (the agency) to get more out of them without jeopardising the end client.

2) The business can also determine if the end client could also squeeze back against the broker business without affecting the contractors company and thus increasing the chances of repeat business with said end client (renewal).

3) If the business also knows what other businesses (other contractors) are charging the end client, the company can then determine how much to push the end client (and broker) for, in regards to the final overall cost (rate increase).

Without knowing the margins your business is in a weaker position than knowing them. So, why do even experienced contractors keep peddling the line that it's none of your business, when clearly it is EXACTLY your business to try and find out?

The answer is the way they always say "your" like you are a person? Sound familiar? Yes that's right they are still thinking in permi mode, rather than as a proper business that would want to increase it's revenue all the time, whichever way possible.

So, can we stop trying to be arrogant and flash gits with this "it's none of your business" rubbish now please?

We are only playing into the agent’s hands

[Zippy]

As i say with all my contractors what would they do with the info if they knew it. If your going to use it to help negotiate your rate then it means your not happy with it and shouldn't have accepted the contract in the first place.

You may be happy with the rate for the first six months, then as time goes on you become more valuable to the client. At renewal time you might want to negotiate a rate rise but the agent will tell you the client won't pay more. It's at this point that it is useful to know how much of a margin the agency has to play with and therefore whether they can afford to cough up a bit more.

Just a thought....

[TheFaQQer]

It's rarely the agencies taking the michael, it's the big consultancies. If only the clients would work out that they could get the same people on the same risk basis for around a third the cost...

Unfortunately, clients see a consultancy as value for money, but contractors as money grabbing scum.

One place I worked was moaning about how much the team of contractors cost, until I pointed out that the new graddie from Oracle was being charged out at £200 a day MORE than any contractor, and all he was doing was filing and filling in spreadsheets. If they let the solution architect cut down to three days a week, it would have paid for ten days of contractor time, but they couldn't see that they were being fleeced.

[Cooperinliverp00l]

being a Test Manager also helps especially when your project manager doesn't have a clue how to do a job. I know all my contractors rates and agency charges in most cases it's about 15% -20%. Some clients have a threshold limit on margins and won't entertain an agency if it is too high.

As i say with all my contractors what would they do with the info if they knew it. If your going to use it to help negotiate your rate then it means your not happy with it and shouldn't have accepted the contract in the first place.

[Chugnut]

It's rarely the agencies taking the michael, it's the big consultancies. If only the clients would work out that they could get the same people on the same risk basis for around a third the cost...

Agreed. The ones I've worked through have consistently gone for at least a 100% mark up and that's for the chimps. For higher level technical folk & service delivery bods, 300% - 400% is not uncommon.

The end client usually wants the "security blanket" of dealing with one big consultancy rather than source individuals. It would appear they don't mind paying way over the odds for such a luxury.

[King Cnvt]

Often it is public sector clients that are coughing up the £2K a day for a £400 per day skillset.

But since they are unaccountable, with a bottomless tax-payer derived budget, why worry? £2K, £20K, £200K/day, makes no odds.

[malvolio]

The advantage of being a PM is that you are usually in charge of a budget that will include your own costs to the client. I'm never sure the agencies have twigged that, but I've never been sold in at more than 20% over my day rate - and the last one was 4%.

OTOH I was working for a major supplier for a while and got asked to take on a short-term consultancy role at one of thier clients. I was charged out at £2k a day for a week's work when I was on around £450.

It's rarely the agencies taking the michael, it's the big consultancies. If only the clients would work out that they could get the same people on the same risk basis for around a third the cost...

[TheFaQQer]

Ask the client or ask the agent.

Some will tell you their margin, some won't. My current one says that they won't tell me, but they will tell the client how much they are paying me.

[Chugnut]

Welcome to the board though, blinko.

[EternalOptimist]

Hi all

i was just wondering if there is any legal justification on finding out how much im being charged out for ?

im not sure if there is but i would like to be able to wave legal document x.y.z to back me up if possible thanks

I had a similar problem when I went to get a new car last year. I signed on the dotted line , drove the car away but then I had second thoughts. I wanted to know exactly how much the car had cost them to make, how big their margin was and whether I was being ripped off.
They told me I was a fool and to **** right off.

bit like you really

[Chugnut]

It's nowt to do with you squire, but it's always a shock when you find out how much!