Reply to: Project Manager or Developer?

[Francko]

I see you know Francko. His new employers are using the mushroom theory of management: put him in a dark room, feed him tulipe and watch him grow.

The fact that it works for you doesn't mean that it works for everyone else. Some of us prefer not to be full of sh1te, you know...

[sasguru]

...most of the developers I've met are social lepers who you wouldn't dream of putting in front of a client.

.....

I see you know Francko. His new employers are using the mushroom theory of management: put him in a dark room, feed him tulipe and watch him grow.

[Francko]

That's an interesting approach. What do you say to the interview for your permanent role, when they see that you were permanent and left and did the same thing again?
How do you convince them that you will not leave this one and go back to contracting a few years later?

Just tell them what they want to hear. They hire you because you have the skills. Of course they would prefer people who stay 10-15 years in the same company who would even sink with the same stinking boat. But then normally these people do not have that many skills as they sticked for a long time on just a few subjects. So whether they like it or not, they must hire you.

[~Craig~]

It amazed me when some pimp suggested something similar once...

maybe he was right ;-)

[~Craig~]

I really don't understand why your average code-monkey thinks he'll make a good Project Manager.....most of the developers I've met are social lepers who you wouldn't dream of putting in front of a client.

Project Management is it's own discipline which requires a different skillset, not something you can work your way up to.......

rant over :-) I'll get me coat.......

[kesm]

Well, I do a mix of contracting and permie. I go permie when I have to learn new skills for a few years, then milk it for a few years after and so on. Yes, it's only big consultancies where you can have some respect in these positions. However, the road is still very slow. They are trying, as you said, to value people in the technical progression but still the opportunities are not that many and people who are on the business side gets unfairly most of the credit and bonus opportunities. So you are right, contracting is really the only option (going permie only when you need to refresh your skills).

That's an interesting approach. What do you say to the interview for your permanent role, when they see that you were permanent and left and did the same thing again?
How do you convince them that you will not leave this one and go back to contracting a few years later?

[Zorba]

Well done NAT. I just wish I understood what you do.

It's simple - you get the .net training manuals and you're off...

[ASB]

The downside is that it can also turn out into an "all responsibility" if both techies and PMs are not doing their job well and they both come to you when the sh1t hits the fan.

Tell me about it. All the responsibility and precisely no authority. By the time it gets to me the tulip has already hit the fan.

[sli_gryn]

The downside is that it can also turn out into an "all responsibility" if both techies and PMs are not doing their job well and they both come to you when the sh1t hits the fan.

too true! if you can see that one coming, raise your concerns with the Programme Manager and start getting your resume in order!

[wendigo100]

I went from ABAPper contractor into permiedom as a team lead, to Head of Development in a multinational, managing a team of technical project managers/team leads in various countries. It was fun. ( Taking the team out, and then calling my boss from the Buddha Bar in Paris at 10pm, getting his agreement to sign off the expenses, was a notable achievement that doesn't appear on my CV... ).

However, the politics eventually got to me, and I went back to contract ABAP development. ( Now OO in BW and SEM). And frankly, I love it. I wish I'd never gone up the management tree. Though having been there, I've got excellent high level contacts that are very useful for keeping me in work.

And I think I'm getting a slightly higher rate than your pm rate. ;-)

NotAllThere

Well done NAT. I just wish I understood what you do.

[NotAllThere]

I went from ABAPper contractor into permiedom as a team lead, to Head of Development in a multinational, managing a team of technical project managers/team leads in various countries. It was fun. ( Taking the team out, and then calling my boss from the Buddha Bar in Paris at 10pm, getting his agreement to sign off the expenses, was a notable achievement that doesn't appear on my CV... ).

However, the politics eventually got to me, and I went back to contract ABAP development. ( Now OO in BW and SEM). And frankly, I love it. I wish I'd never gone up the management tree. Though having been there, I've got excellent high level contacts that are very useful for keeping me in work.

And I think I'm getting a slightly higher rate than your pm rate. ;-)

NotAllThere

[sasguru]

Drivel drivel blah blah

Some people just have no talent eh?

[Francko]

I see. Are you not a contractor?

I used to work for Capgemini as a permie (most of my experience has been working for such consultancies), and their career path had options to accommodate people who didn't want to move up the ladder. You would have an option of doing your same role even if you've reached the limit that you could get paid for that role; but the point was nobody would look down on you as to why you are not progressing in your career so it would be perfectly legitimate.

Seems to me contracting or working in a consultancy is where you want to be.

Well, I do a mix of contracting and permie. I go permie when I have to learn new skills for a few years, then milk it for a few years after and so on. Yes, it's only big consultancies where you can have some respect in these positions. However, the road is still very slow. They are trying, as you said, to value people in the technical progression but still the opportunities are not that many and people who are on the business side gets unfairly most of the credit and bonus opportunities. So you are right, contracting is really the only option (going permie only when you need to refresh your skills).

[Peter Loew]

Some also stay and further develop and are not disgruntled. I am disgruntled with the people who wants you to move into management positions when they see you are good and experienced. This seems to happen to me everytime I move to a new position. I don't want, I want to keep doing what I like and I feel that there is and there always be a lot to progress in the technical field. Unless you believe that after 5-10 years you have nothing else to learn, in which case I can raise some doubts about what you say. As you pointed out, only keeping your knowledge up to edge is already a constant challenge. I am not against the people who understand that they are naturally inclined towards other positions, I am against the ones who believes management is the only natural progressions or the ones who use management as a conveyor for the failures, who is probably not you but there are many, you can't deny. Besides you only get money once you raise to directors level, and this step is not dependant on skills any longer but purely on political and lack of moral skills. PMs only get the stress of management, not the money (I do understand that some may find it interesting though).

I see. Are you not a contractor?

I used to work for Capgemini as a permie (most of my experience has been working for such consultancies), and their career path had options to accommodate people who didn't want to move up the ladder. You would have an option of doing your same role even if you've reached the limit that you could get paid for that role; but the point was nobody would look down on you as to why you are not progressing in your career so it would be perfectly legitimate.

Seems to me contracting or working in a consultancy is where you want to be.

[Peter Loew]

I wonder sometimes what PM would feel like - how is it at release time for you as PM compared to when you were doing dev?

Managing a RADS project at the moment and it was release time this week. As a PM I planned for every possible contingency I could think of, with input from the RADS lead. I get constant updates depending on how complex the release is, and handle any problems as they arise so always have to be on the ball. So long as you have planned for the worst, and the client understands that, then you can't do much else except carry on with your other projects while the release is being done.

I think devs concern themselves as much with releases just as PMs do, as it's their efforts that are going to be scrutinised if things go pair shaped, as well as the PMs efforts.