Reply to: Miss White Great Britain

[Old Greg]

I think you will find that the BNP (amongst others) believe that the rights of indigenous Brits (read white) are not being dealt with as fairly as those of ethnic minorities and migrants.
Much the same argument you are using for supporting black only beauty contests and police federations etc.
If whites are not allowed to join a black only club like the BPOF then why should the BNPs favourite club (GB) not be made exclusively white? after all there are plenty of other clubs for other ethnic groups.

Well - making the GB club whire involves evicting and expelling a lot of people, and is hard to equate with not letting white people into the black police officers' group.

[SallyAnne]

Oh not again...

[The Lone Gunman]

I don't rememer the exact details of the argument, but I think you've you're talking about a different thing from where we were just now.

The BNP position of 'looking after our own first' is essentially about discrimination (giving white people prioirty at the expense of non-whites) in terms of housing, jobs, education. It's calling for a specific change in policy to favour whites.

The black police officers group (whateverit's called) is about supporting its members against discrimination from racist colleagues and management (how relevant it is today may be up for debate but that's where it comes from).

The BNP seeks to equate the two points above with 'they've got their group, so we want our group' so as to push a racist policy.

I think you will find that the BNP (amongst others) believe that the rights of indigenous Brits (read white) are not being dealt with as fairly as those of ethnic minorities and migrants.
Much the same argument you are using for supporting black only beauty contests and police federations etc.
If whites are not allowed to join a black only club like the BPOF then why should the BNPs favourite club (GB) not be made exclusively white? after all there are plenty of other clubs for other ethnic groups.

[Old Greg]

Greg: So you do think it is right for ethnic groups to support each other to the exclusion of others?
You see, the other week you got awfuly upset when someone argued that the BNP policy of looking after ones own first should be supported.

I am being deliberately extreme here.

I don't rememer the exact details of the argument, but I think you've you're talking about a different thing from where we were just now.

The BNP position of 'looking after our own first' is essentially about discrimination (giving white people prioirty at the expense of non-whites) in terms of housing, jobs, education. It's calling for a specific change in policy to favour whites.

The black police officers group (whateverit's called) is about supporting its members against discrimination from racist colleagues and management (how relevant it is today may be up for debate but that's where it comes from).

The BNP seeks to equate the two points above with 'they've got their group, so we want our group' so as to push a racist policy.

[The Lone Gunman]

Greg: So you do think it is right for ethnic groups to support each other to the exclusion of others?
You see, the other week you got awfuly upset when someone argued that the BNP policy of looking after ones own first should be supported.

I am being deliberately extreme here.

[Old Greg]

Why do you keep banging on about Gay - this thread is nothing to do with being Gay
Are you deliberately trying to deflect the arguments by constantly citing Gayness?

I've used sexuality and homophobia as examples of organisations by minorities, and also I've posted about race. They illustrate the same point to my mind. But, if it makes you happy, take the example about the gay policeman suffering homophobic harrassment and make him a black policeman suffering racist harrassment.

If these boards have recently tightened up the keep absolutely to topic rules, let me know and we will talk about nothing but Miss White Great Britain and forget about policemen altogether.

[Pondlife]

Why do you keep banging on about Gay - this thread is nothing to do with being Gay
Are you deliberately trying to deflect the arguments by constantly citing Gayness?

WTF is Gayness?

[Troll]

In randomish order - I'm generally against affirmative action as practiced in US, meaning that you compensate or the inequalities of the system by giving black (for example) people priority in terms of jobs/education. I see a role for this in some very limited circumstances to redress the balance in representation in certain prominent organisations - the only one I can think of off the top of my head, is giving priority to Catholics/nationalists to join the PSNI as a way of ensuring that the PSNI is representative of the community. It waas always going to be controversial, but it was IMO an essential part of the society normalising.

The Police Federation should absolutely promote equality and represent everyone equally, even if they belong to minority groups, but it wasn't (don't know if it does now) and that's why there was the need for other groups. Imagine a gay policeman 20 years ago going to the Federation: 'Senior Management at my station won't take it seriously that I'm being harrassed for my sexuality by colleagues - and one of them is the local Police Federation rep'. Let's be honest - there's no way he'd get proper representation. Hence the need for separate organisation.

Grist to the mill? Racists/fascists will exploit anything for propaganda but that shouldn't stop people doing what they need to do.

I like the point about inclusion, not isolation and I think you see that with the emergence of Gay Pride, which is about celebrating a culture, but doesn't exclude others who want to attend. Notting Hill Carnival is the same, and I went a couple of years ago to an Asian Mela.

In the case of Gay Pride, it's an example, I think, of the gay movement in transition. There is still the need for pressure groups because discrimination still exists, and society still does not see gays as equal to straight people. But things have shifted enough to allow Gay Pride to occur with minimal complaints or harrassment.

Why do you keep banging on about Gay - this thread is nothing to do with being Gay
Are you deliberately trying to deflect the arguments by constantly citing Gayness?

[Moscow Mule]

Not enough people would vote for a black contestant?

I would if she was hot.

[Old Greg]

The answer to discrimination is inclusion not isolation.

The (for example) Police Officers Federation should be dealing with ALL problems faced by all officers, black or white male or female.

Setting up discrimanatory bodies only goes to show that there is a difference in the first place. It also gives grist to the mill of racists pointing out that inverted racism seems to be OK.

These focused bodies always argue that the "default" body deals with the "default" case, but this is very often not the case and very often the minority takes priority so the main body can be seen to be not racist/sexist/homophobic. The small lobby becomes the loudest voice.
The majority becomes unrepresented because nobody is actualy looking after them.

I am against discrimination in all its forms including positive action.

In randomish order - I'm generally against affirmative action as practiced in US, meaning that you compensate or the inequalities of the system by giving black (for example) people priority in terms of jobs/education. I see a role for this in some very limited circumstances to redress the balance in representation in certain prominent organisations - the only one I can think of off the top of my head, is giving priority to Catholics/nationalists to join the PSNI as a way of ensuring that the PSNI is representative of the community. It waas always going to be controversial, but it was IMO an essential part of the society normalising.

The Police Federation should absolutely promote equality and represent everyone equally, even if they belong to minority groups, but it wasn't (don't know if it does now) and that's why there was the need for other groups. Imagine a gay policeman 20 years ago going to the Federation: 'Senior Management at my station won't take it seriously that I'm being harrassed for my sexuality by colleagues - and one of them is the local Police Federation rep'. Let's be honest - there's no way he'd get proper representation. Hence the need for separate organisation.

Grist to the mill? Racists/fascists will exploit anything for propaganda but that shouldn't stop people doing what they need to do.

I like the point about inclusion, not isolation and I think you see that with the emergence of Gay Pride, which is about celebrating a culture, but doesn't exclude others who want to attend. Notting Hill Carnival is the same, and I went a couple of years ago to an Asian Mela.

In the case of Gay Pride, it's an example, I think, of the gay movement in transition. There is still the need for pressure groups because discrimination still exists, and society still does not see gays as equal to straight people. But things have shifted enough to allow Gay Pride to occur with minimal complaints or harrassment.

[dang65]

BTW please point out where the discrimination is in the existing Miss GB competition

Presumably the Oscars is open to all film directors. It covers all types of films. So how come there is also an Independent Film Awards? That's unfair on MGM and Warner Brothers isn't it?

[Churchill]

Alternatively, the Government should be looking after ALL types of workers, so there should be no requirement for a Professional Contractors Group.

Now there's an oxymoron!

What are the qualifications required to join the PCG?

[dang65]

The (for example) Police Officers Federation should be dealing with ALL problems faced by all officers, black or white male or female.

Alternatively, the Government should be looking after ALL types of workers, so there should be no requirement for a Professional Contractors Group.

[Churchill]

So the answer to percieved discrimination is more discrimination?

BTW please point out where the discrimination is in the existing Miss GB competition

Not enough people would vote for a black contestant?

[Troll]

and then there will be:
Miss Mulatto GB
Miss Asian GB
Miss Oriental GB
Miss Not Black or White GB
Miss Not Appearing In This Thread GB