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Previously on "Professional Day"

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  • threaded
    replied
    Agree, I always offer my hourly rate * 10 when they want a day rate.

    Leave a comment:


  • Euro-commuter
    replied
    Originally posted by Orangutan
    Back to the original question of "how long is a professional day"

    in my experience its depended on who's point of view.
    The individual will say anything between 7.5-9 hrs, but the client will normally say "as long as it takes", with a silent (minimum 8hrs) thrown in.

    for me this raises the question of what is "professional", I am sure we would all say its delivering what the client has asked for, but the client would say its delivering what they want (which as the threads above prove isn't necessarily what they asked for, skilled up for or even are willing to pay for, or infact what they need !)
    I think you have put your finger on the aspect that annoys some of us: it's a slipper definition: flexible upwards but with a limit at the bottom end. Professional day = 8h + what it takes.

    Leave a comment:


  • Orangutan
    replied
    Back to the original question of "how long is a professional day"

    in my experience its depended on who's point of view.
    The individual will say anything between 7.5-9 hrs, but the client will normally say "as long as it takes", with a silent (minimum 8hrs) thrown in.

    for me this raises the question of what is "professional", I am sure we would all say its delivering what the client has asked for, but the client would say its delivering what they want (which as the threads above prove isn't necessarily what they asked for, skilled up for or even are willing to pay for, or infact what they need !)

    Leave a comment:


  • chicane
    replied
    I've done tons of fixed-price in the past. Even with a well-defined spec signed off, things have a tendency to become difficult with the client as scope creep enters the equation, as it inevitably does.

    Generally speaking, clients don't understand what they want until they actually see it in action - they simply don't tend to have the mindset (or the desire) to make sense of a written description of the functionality.

    With any fixed price contract, it's probably wise to say something to the client along the lines of "With the knowledge I have now, I anticipate the work will cost £15000, but you need to be prepared to spend £20000 in the event of any unforeseen circumstances". This will at least cover you in the event of a reasonable degree of creep - but it's always worth bearing in mind the small percentage of clients who are intent on taking the p*ss.

    Leave a comment:


  • VectraMan
    replied
    I managed to do the fixed price thing on a short term project (1 month). This was continuing on from a traditional contract with the same client so there was a degree of trust. We had an outline and a prototype that we agreed to, but no proper spec, so yes there was a large element of risk there.

    Leave a comment:


  • rootsnall
    replied
    Originally posted by Vito
    My experience is that Agents don't like or promote this approach...they need the extensions and how much effort the contractor has to put in is no concern of theirs.

    Its like anything...sell the benefits and if it really is beneficial to all concerned parties then it will happen. But the well defined spec is tough and often a showstopper.
    Aswell as the spec it's the contract you would have to have in place to cover things going pear shaped, you'd have to have a personal lawyer on call 24hrs a day.

    Leave a comment:


  • Vito
    replied
    My experience is that Agents don't like or promote this approach...they need the extensions and how much effort the contractor has to put in is no concern of theirs.

    Its like anything...sell the benefits and if it really is beneficial to all concerned parties then it will happen. But the well defined spec is tough and often a showstopper.

    Leave a comment:


  • Zorba
    replied
    Originally posted by Vito
    When I was a Permie recruiting contractors I used to always try and get them to do a fixed price contract...I don't understand IT so I always wanted a price for an end deliverable...this used to cost me a little more as there is a shared risk element ina fixed price contract...but that was always fine with me.

    {cut for conciseness}

    It does of course depend on the kind of work you do and also how confident you are of your estimates (and how well defined a piece of work is)...but this is surely the way we would all prefer to work and you would never have to worry about paying for IR35 insurance again!
    In my current role I had to recruit a team to deliver the work, and I did actually propose your way of working to the client at the start. He nearly keeled over at the idea because they just weren't used to working like that. As has already been stated, this absolutely hinges on good specifications and estimates but is beneficial to everyone (ok, except the contractor's family in the short term but hey, we knew that anyway). It's just a question of finding clients who are prepared to do this. I'd hazard a guess that agents strongly dissuade clients from doing this as they (the agents) stand to earn more, but I don't have evidence to prove it of course.

    And I agree, it would totally kill off any IR35 issues! I have considered invoicing for single 3 month contracts in one go (at the end) once I have a warchest stocked up from that point of view. Not as good as fixed-price, though, by a long shot.

    Leave a comment:


  • el duder
    replied
    Originally posted by TheRightStuff
    Not defined in hrs on the contract - which is good.
    How many hrs would you say a professional working day is.
    7 or 8 hrs?

    Depends on who ur working for

    Private Sector - 8 +

    Public Sector - 7.2 or less.

    Leave a comment:


  • SallyAnne
    replied
    Originally posted by timh
    Blimey, didn't expect this to be controversial.
    CUK...always expect the unexpected

    Leave a comment:


  • rootsnall
    replied
    Originally posted by Vito
    Absolutely I'm sure it was...thats the whole point...he'd have dragged it out if on a day rate so I'd have paid pretty much the same (and probably had to do a 3 month extension as he'd have created some problems to overcome I'm sure, so therefore paid a lot more) and had to wait much longer for it...

    This way we both won...its what makes the world go round!

    I did occassionally have people make a loss (inc. a major consultancy that lost about £1m on a fixed contract with me, muppets) though becuase they had either underestimated the task or overestimated their ability...but this was the exception rather than the norm.
    You must of written a very good spec. It's a good idea in theory but a non starter in most situations I have worked in.

    Leave a comment:


  • Vito
    replied
    Originally posted by oxtailsoup
    Did he do any of this work off site by any chance? I think most of us would agree that if you quote 20 hours you could actually do it in half the time if your really wanted to!

    I'm not knocking your methods, obviously it was a good deal for you too. But I bet it was a v v v good deal for him!


    Absolutely I'm sure it was...thats the whole point...he'd have dragged it out if on a day rate so I'd have paid pretty much the same (and probably had to do a 3 month extension as he'd have created some problems to overcome I'm sure, so therefore paid a lot more) and had to wait much longer for it...

    This way we both won...its what makes the world go round!

    I did occassionally have people make a loss (inc. a major consultancy that lost about £1m on a fixed contract with me, muppets) though becuase they had either underestimated the task or overestimated their ability...but this was the exception rather than the norm.

    Leave a comment:


  • oxtailsoup
    replied
    I bet he even smeared some of his girlfriends eye liner under his eyes each morning and told you he was up all night working!

    Leave a comment:


  • oxtailsoup
    replied
    Originally posted by Vito
    ...we agreed on the deal and he worked pretty much 15hr days 7 days per week and had it knocked on the head in about 6 weeks...
    Did he do any of this work off site by any chance? I think most of us would agree that if you quote 20 hours you could actually do it in half the time if your really wanted to!

    I'm not knocking your methods, obviously it was a good deal for you too. But I bet it was a v v v good deal for him!

    Leave a comment:


  • Vito
    replied
    Originally posted by Zorba
    Whilst I agree with the principle of this, I have yet to see a real world case where it goes like:


    I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm saying that permie managers aren't thinking that way

    Apart from support, of course.

    When I was a Permie recruiting contractors I used to always try and get them to do a fixed price contract...I don't understand IT so I always wanted a price for an end deliverable...this used to cost me a little more as there is a shared risk element ina fixed price contract...but that was always fine with me.

    As an example...I was once quoted 80 days at £500 for a piece of work I wanted doing (I did a sense check with our IT bods who said it sounded about right)...so this worked out at £40k...so I asked the guy to give me a fixed price of £44k (I always added on 10%) which covered the risk he was taking by giving such an estimate...we agreed on the deal and he worked pretty much 15hr days 7 days per week and had it knocked on the head in about 6 weeks...in this sitaution we all won...I had paid £4k more than I needed to, but equally there would have been no guarantees of the work being complete in that time and also I got the end deliverable several weeks ahead of when I needed it done by...and he gave up his life for a few weeks but it meant he could then go to Oz for a couple of months...

    It does of course depend on the kind of work you do and also how confident you are of your estimates (and how well defined a piece of work is)...but this is surely the way we would all prefer to work and you would never have to worry about paying for IR35 insurance again!

    Leave a comment:

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