Reply to: Scotland's Independence (make it happen)

[Diestl]

You mean Tony's moronic cronies from America.

Yeah more probable.

[wendigo100]

More likely the IT systems they've introduced have been developed by morons down south, much like all the large Government related IT systems.

You mean Tony's moronic cronies from America.

[Diestl]

If you people can't even fill in a ballot paper correctly - what hope is there for running your own country?

More likely the IT systems they've introduced have been developed by morons down south, much like all the large Government related IT systems.

[The Lone Gunman]

<snip>

Sorry myself. I jumped on you when I had no need.

What I have been tryingh to do is show the irony in the "freedom for Scotland" argument.

I am trying in my own clumsy way to show how the arguments used against being British are just the same for Shetland being Scots.

All your answers about "thinking Scots" can be applied to "thinking" Brits (including the English) when it comes to the Union, and the "straw man" argument can be levelled at the Scots for (some of) their reasons to be independant.

[Euro-commuter]

If you people can't even fill in a ballot paper correctly - what hope is there for running your own country?

The real answer is, that's our problem, not yours.

[Euro-commuter]

I was replying to a specific poster. But.....
As most secessionists DO argue that the oil goes with Scotland I felt it was right to raise the idea that the oil may not want to stay with Scotland.

Why shouldn't I raise such a point? Do you have a monopoly on what can be discussed here?

Surely when the Scots are talking about their independence they must consider the Islanders too, or are you all so bigoted that you ignore the needs of the smaller communities within your boundaries?
Why don't you "say such a thing"?

Précis: sorry I didn't mean to restrict discussion; and we do not say that about the oil.
---------------------------------------------

Apology first, I did not mean to imply that I wanted to restrict speech (hence the "please", a rare addition )

What I mean to say is:
1. you claimed that

Fascinating isn't it, the Scots (well the cesationists anyway) insist on thier right to independence, but seem to think the Islanders have no similar right.

and I said that it is not true that secessionists/nationalists think that.

Therefore it is a "Straw Man" argument: you are pretending to score over your opponents by demolishing arguments that they are not actually arguing.


2. yes indeed, most of the oil goes with Shetland. If Shetland stays with Scotland as Scotland secedes, the oil stays with Scotland. If Shetland itself secedes, the oil goes with it. If Shetland secedes and joind Norway, the oil presumably goes to Norway, on the Shetlanders# terms. And of course if Shetland declines to secede, and remains within the United Kingdom, then so does the oil.

So far, quite logical. Do you have a disagreement with any of that? Because I don't, and neither do most Scottish nationalists that I know.

3. It is not really central; you accused most secessionist of being unfair (and Threaded did of being illogical), whereas it just isn't so. When we talk of Scotland seceding, we don't first check out every part: Shetland might well decide not to go with Scotland; so could Lewis, or Edinburgh for all I care. It's their choice, it's just a different topic. If we are talking about Scotland's independence, and you accuse us of imperialism towards Shetland, I have to ask whether you are suddenly concerned about Shetland, or just looking for a way to dig at Scotland. Well, you could find a better dig than that (I could offer you a few ), but that one is a non-argument.

Finally, as for being so bigoted that we ignore the needs of smaller communities within our boundaries, we may all be guilty of that but some of us do try not to be, and I would count thinking Scots in that latter group. Some of us, who have never spoken a word of Gaelic in our lives, have even been known to put ourselves down as Gaelic speakers on the census, to improve the gaeltacht's visibilty!

[Troll]

If you people can't even fill in a ballot paper correctly - what hope is there for running your own country?

The contest in Scotland has been overshadowed by an unprecedented number of spoilt ballot papers which have been recorded across the country, with fears that the national figure could exceed 100,000

[The Lone Gunman]

The Straw Man argument. I have never said any such thing, nor has any Scottish secessionist that I know (and I probably know more than you do).

So if you do ever hear someone say that, go ahead and pick them up on it, but leave it out of the general argument, please.

I was replying to a specific poster. But.....
As most secessionists DO argue that the oil goes with Scotland I felt it was right to raise the idea that the oil may not want to stay with Scotland.

Why shouldn't I raise such a point? Do you have a monopoly on what can be discussed here?

Surely when the Scots are talking about their independence they must consider the Islanders too, or are you all so bigoted that you ignore the needs of the smaller communities within your boundaries?
Why don't you "say such a thing"?

[wendigo100]

Surely that is implicit to the argument that Scotland gets the oil revenues? If the islands are allowed to secede and join the Scandinavians then the Danes and Norwegians will get all the money. Also the Shetlanders will get much improved social services to say the least.

Will they be able to afford their own global warming, and have warmer weather and more daylight in winter as well?

[wendigo100]

If the islanders secede then they will get the corresponding oil revenues. If they join Norway, for example, then they will. If they remain part of Scotland, so will the oil revenues. Problem so far?

I think the point is that the oil would be Shetlandish, as a lot of the fields are closer to there than the mainland.

[Euro-commuter]

Surely that is implicit to the argument that Scotland gets the oil revenues? If the islands are allowed to secede and join the Scandinavians then the Danes and Norwegians will get all the money. Also the Shetlanders will get much improved social services to say the least.

If the islanders secede then they will get the corresponding oil revenues. If they join Norway, for example, then they will. If they remain part of Scotland, so will the oil revenues. Problem so far?

[threaded]

The Straw Man argument. I have never said any such thing, nor has any Scottish secessionist that I know (and I probably know more than you do).

So if you do ever hear someone say that, go ahead and pick them up on it, but leave it out of the general argument, please.

Surely that is implicit to the argument that Scotland gets the oil revenues? If the islands are allowed to secede and join the Scandinavians then the Danes and Norwegians will get all the money. Also the Shetlanders will get much improved social services to say the least.

[Euro-commuter]

Fascinating isn't it, the Scots (well the cesationists anyway) insist on thier right to independence, but seem to think the Islanders have no similar right.

The Straw Man argument. I have never said any such thing, nor has any Scottish secessionist that I know (and I probably know more than you do).

So if you do ever hear someone say that, go ahead and pick them up on it, but leave it out of the general argument, please.

[Stan]

Labour don't want it.
Gordo doesn't want it.

It MUST be good.

I thought they were all into "devolution" anyway, or is it only on their terms.

[threaded]

Fascinating isn't it, the Scots (well the cesationists anyway) insist on thier right to independence, but seem to think the Islanders have no similar right.

Hey up, we'll have none of that logic stuff creeping into this thread, thank you very much!