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Reply to: DisHonest Practice

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Previously on "DisHonest Practice"

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  • Churchill
    replied
    Originally posted by realityhack
    While we're praising - my first agency rep at Abraxas, Chris Winsdale, was an absolute star. He helped me with everything from co. setup to settling in, and would always get back to me in an instant, and move mountains to correct the odd payment error straight away.
    When I was going through hell with Giant (what a stupid, stupid mistake it was to sign with them) he put them straight, and had the agency sub me when Giant was witholding pay. Probably the best agent I've ever dealt with.
    On the Abraxas front, I agree. Possibly the second best agency I've ever worked through.

    (Not as good as "DodgyAgent Plc" but good nonetheless)

    Leave a comment:


  • realityhack
    replied
    While we're praising - my first agency rep at Abraxas, Chris Winsdale, was an absolute star. He helped me with everything from co. setup to settling in, and would always get back to me in an instant, and move mountains to correct the odd payment error straight away.
    When I was going through hell with Giant (what a stupid, stupid mistake it was to sign with them) he put them straight, and had the agency sub me when Giant was witholding pay. Probably the best agent I've ever dealt with.

    Leave a comment:


  • ash
    replied
    I came over here from Oz last year and am nearing the end of my first contract. Certainly started cottoning on to the unethical tactics being used by agents while hunting for my first gig, and am dismayed to hear that these tactics are widespread...

    However, I've got nothing but praise for my individual agent, Dan Shaw at Aston Carter. I was a little unlucky early on in my initial job hunt last year, after some good interviews, so Dan and his team made it a personal crusade to land me a contract. Since then, we keep in touch, at least weekly, and he goes out of his way to make sure things are OK down my end. A few times, particularly while requiring documentation and an emergency pay run for my HSMP Visa application, he's dropped everything to help out.

    I'm expecting reality to sink in when my current contract ends in July, but I can (without any personal interest or gain) thoroughly recommend Dan.

    Leave a comment:


  • Old Greg
    replied
    Originally posted by Frus88ed
    Hi Guys,

    I think the CO-OP model might be a good theoretical model but all no what happens when not for profit serves for the profit.

    I suppose like estate agents they are necessary, however even esate agents take a fixed fee, they dont add a percentage onto the house cost ? the agents negotiating day rates as part of there own daily fee is wrong, should be a fixed rate.

    As for agents placing and running with the money its not a bad business if you can generate the job roles in the first place.

    I certainly dont think the contractor market would have existed this long had it not been for the agents in the first place.

    As for slamming phones down on them, never my style.
    Last one for the weekend and I promise not to mention co-ops again. Co-ops work with profit making companies. Agricultural co-ops sell produce on behalf of their members to end clients, cutting out the grasping buyers in the middle. Works very well.

    Leave a comment:


  • Frus88ed
    replied
    Hi Guys,

    I think the CO-OP model might be a good theoretical model but all no what happens when not for profit serves for the profit.

    I suppose like estate agents they are necessary, however even esate agents take a fixed fee, they dont add a percentage onto the house cost ? the agents negotiating day rates as part of there own daily fee is wrong, should be a fixed rate.

    As for agents placing and running with the money its not a bad business if you can generate the job roles in the first place.

    I certainly dont think the contractor market would have existed this long had it not been for the agents in the first place.

    As for slamming phones down on them, never my style.

    Leave a comment:


  • Old Greg
    replied
    I've got no complaints so far - got a good lunch out of my agent. I'll come after you when things go wrong.

    Leave a comment:


  • DodgyAgent
    replied
    Originally posted by Old Greg
    This relates to my point about penetrating the market. Of course you need people skilled in the business. But in other industries, co-ops of small suppliers exist to cut out middlemen. Despite all your well made points, I don't see why it couldn't happen in this industry, except.... I suspect contractors are not the most 'cooperative'
    I think for the time being that you are stuck with us

    Leave a comment:


  • Old Greg
    replied
    Originally posted by DodgyAgent
    You would still need to sell it, which would mean having to employ "the right type of people", and you would have to be able to match the right CV to the right job. I am afraid that there are already a good number of agencies trying to supply at low rates, but it makes no difference to the prescence of high rate suppliers.

    You need maybe to appreciate that price is not necessarily a deciding factor. You may have a supplier supplying at zero margins but that is of little use if the agency cannot supply or nail the rates to the contractors themselves down.
    This relates to my point about penetrating the market. Of course you need people skilled in the business. But in other industries, co-ops of small suppliers exist to cut out middlemen. Despite all your well made points, I don't see why it couldn't happen in this industry, except.... I suspect contractors are not the most 'cooperative'

    Leave a comment:


  • DodgyAgent
    replied
    Originally posted by Old Greg
    I agree with this in terms of analysis of how the market works. But large %s do not just decrease income for contractors. They also increase costs for clients. Cutting out the middleman (which in a roundabout way is what a co-op does - or at least it takes the profit element out of the middleman) decreases the % margin so clients and contractors both win. Taking your points about indulging in aftercare and returning calls, I expect you're right again - a co-op could not start 'indulging' if it made it uncompetitive, but it could be up front about how it operates. Don't say someone will phone back if they won't. The members (contractors) can agree these rules and make them public so everyone knows what to expect.

    The agencies that surruptitiously take large %s would then be either uncompetitive to clients on cost or would be offering lower rates to contractors, in which case they would end up not with the best candidates (and therefore uncompetitive on quality).


    Going back to my 1st post, this would all depend on penetrating the market, and contractors getting together in the 1st place to set it up (which doesn't seem very likely to me),
    You would still need to sell it, which would mean having to employ "the right type of people", and you would have to be able to match the right CV to the right job. I am afraid that there are already a good number of agencies trying to supply at low rates, but it makes no difference to the prescence of high rate suppliers.

    You need maybe to appreciate that price is not necessarily a deciding factor. You may have a supplier supplying at zero margins but that is of little use if the agency cannot supply or nail the rates to the contractors themselves down.

    Leave a comment:


  • Old Greg
    replied
    Originally posted by DodgyAgent
    The practices of many recruitment agencies are deplorable but very carefully "risk managed". Agencies know that indulging in good aftercare for contractors is a waste of precious time. After all despite what some of you may think it is the clients who are paying them not you guys. Contractors will put up with a lot in order to secure the contract that they want, and no one can blame them for that. Although we all may loathe the spivvy antics of Computer People, Huxley and the others it is no coincidence that these agencies are the most sucessful, and that the "nicer ones" are not.

    These agencies are like politicians they say all the right things about caring for their contractors but they know full well that rewards in this industry come from continual contact and hustling of clients. They do not come from wasting time returning calls to contractors who they have no immediate chance of placing.

    It is the Alan Sugar way, it is the Foxtons way, it is HSBC's way, it is how business works; by understanding its customer and by understanding its market..
    I agree with this in terms of analysis of how the market works. But large %s do not just decrease income for contractors. They also increase costs for clients. Cutting out the middleman (which in a roundabout way is what a co-op does - or at least it takes the profit element out of the middleman) decreases the % margin so clients and contractors both win. Taking your points about indulging in aftercare and returning calls, I expect you're right again - a co-op could not start 'indulging' if it made it uncompetitive, but it could be up front about how it operates. Don't say someone will phone back if they won't. The members (contractors) can agree these rules and make them public so everyone knows what to expect.

    The agencies that surruptitiously take large %s would then be either uncompetitive to clients on cost or would be offering lower rates to contractors, in which case they would end up not with the best candidates (and therefore uncompetitive on quality).

    Going back to my 1st post, this would all depend on penetrating the market, and contractors getting together in the 1st place to set it up (which doesn't seem very likely to me),

    Leave a comment:


  • DodgyAgent
    replied
    Originally posted by Old Greg
    My post didn't address agencies' influence over who gets the contract, but on the apparent 'dodgy practices' (inflated %s, and fishing for CVs etc.) which people obviously get so worked up about.

    I didn't mention regulation either, but agree with your final point about government not looking to protect contractors.
    The practices of many recruitment agencies are deplorable but very carefully "risk managed". Agencies know that indulging in good aftercare for contractors is a waste of precious time. After all despite what some of you may think it is the clients who are paying them not you guys. Contractors will put up with a lot in order to secure the contract that they want, and no one can blame them for that. Although we all may loathe the spivvy antics of Computer People, Huxley and the others it is no coincidence that these agencies are the most sucessful, and that the "nicer ones" are not.

    These agencies are like politicians they say all the right things about caring for their contractors but they know full well that rewards in this industry come from continual contact and hustling of clients. They do not come from wasting time returning calls to contractors who they have no immediate chance of placing.

    It is the Alan Sugar way, it is the Foxtons way, it is HSBC's way, it is how business works; by understanding its customer and by understanding its market..
    Last edited by DodgyAgent; 27 April 2007, 15:17.

    Leave a comment:


  • Old Greg
    replied
    My post didn't address agencies' influence over who gets the contract, but on the apparent 'dodgy practices' (inflated %s, and fishing for CVs etc.) which people obviously get so worked up about.

    I didn't mention regulation either, but agree with your final point about government not looking to protect contractors.

    Leave a comment:


  • DodgyAgent
    replied
    Originally posted by Old Greg
    I'm new to contracting and I've been pretty lucky with my 1st contract - well paid, agents behaving decently and on fixed rate. I guess I'll see what it's really like when I go for my next contract.

    It seems some people feel pretty hard done by agents and I can see why when I read some of the tales. There's a view that agents are the big middlemen squeezing the small supplier (contractors).

    There are industries (prinicpally agriculture) where small suppliers increase there power relative to the big boys through cooperatives. If contractors were to form their own cooperative agency/EB and if this successfully penetrated the market, this co-op wouldn't present the same problems in terms of clients/contractors feeling they're being ripped off and in terms of dodgy practice - it wouldn't be in its members interests to behave badly. It could openly advertise its % and would be controlled by its members. A mechanism could be put in place to distribute/invest any profits.

    Having said that, I can't see contractors going for this model so I'll prepare to ride the wave when my contract ends.
    The first thing is that you are overrating the influence that agencies have. There is only so much that an agent can do to influence who a PM recruits. 99% of recruiters use more than one agency and the bottom line is that the agency who gets the best contractor at the right time at the right money is going to get the job. Not some iffy contractor who's CV has been "altered" and who has been conned into accepting the lowest rate. The contractors in most demand are the ones that the PMs want which has the effect of marginalising the influence of the agency.

    As I have said before there is a stronger case for regulating contractors than agents, we are just not important or influential enough. Besides no labour leaning govt will feel any need to provide you lot with any sort of protection as they think that you are nothing more than a bunch of rich tax avoiding parasites. (that is not what I think of you BTW )

    Leave a comment:


  • Old Greg
    replied
    I'm new to contracting and I've been pretty lucky with my 1st contract - well paid, agents behaving decently and on fixed rate. I guess I'll see what it's really like when I go for my next contract.

    It seems some people feel pretty hard done by agents and I can see why when I read some of the tales. There's a view that agents are the big middlemen squeezing the small supplier (contractors).

    There are industries (prinicpally agriculture) where small suppliers increase there power relative to the big boys through cooperatives. If contractors were to form their own cooperative agency/EB and if this successfully penetrated the market, this co-op wouldn't present the same problems in terms of clients/contractors feeling they're being ripped off and in terms of dodgy practice - it wouldn't be in its members interests to behave badly. It could openly advertise its % and would be controlled by its members. A mechanism could be put in place to distribute/invest any profits.

    Having said that, I can't see contractors going for this model so I'll prepare to ride the wave when my contract ends.

    Leave a comment:


  • cojak
    replied
    Then don't use them. Interim doesn't equate with 'desperate' - it should mean a higher rate as you'll be competent enough to be productive from the moment you step on the site.

    Just tell them that before you slam the phone down on them.

    Leave a comment:

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