Tax return

[threaded]

Accountancy can seem like a black art at times. I remember many many years ago that I wanted to increase how much I was putting in my pension each month by a nice round £50 a month. Could I increase my payment by £50? Oh no! I could increase it by £49.67 and by £50.23, but not by exactly £50.

I got the guy to explain the formula they use, and I turned it into an equation. I then solved the equation for £50 and got a number. Gave that back to the accountant, he uses that as the starting figure and out pops £50.23.

Worked through the working of the accountant, and there it was: this rule + that rule created a step function. Arghhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!

So, I then started on how much I wanted to pay in total each month. Worked that through the formula, out popped an answer. Plugged it back into the accountant, and blow me, but I could increase my payment each month by exactly £50!

Taught me an invaluable lesson about accountancy that did.

[mcquiggd]

Well, having just resigned from a finance company where the development team had a rota for technical support by telephone, I think, sod em...

Typical call lasted 30 seconds with some very quiet voice with a noisy background saying just their first name, name of the client ("John Smith" doesnt help much when they have all the frigging account, transaction and portfolio ID numbers right in front of them), something about a trade that was shown as complete, but was joined with another, which was a mistake, and nothing about what they actually wanted / expected the trade status to be, which to cancel. And not answering the phone when you politely call back for more information.

Worst days were fridays, when they finally realised, just before you were due to go home (afte normal company business hours), that they had completely fecked up some deals that would cost the company a small fortune - and "WANTED TO KNOW WHEN IT WOULD BE FIXED", as if it was our fault.

I would have been sooo nice to talk back in the same manner... and recite the SQL they needed to undo their damage on a live database, quote some C# off the cuff that needed to be executed, ask them 'WHEN THEY WOULD LEARN HOW TO DO THE JOB THEY GET PAID FOR', and quietly put the phone down...

At least two people in the dpeartment I am leaving are possible candidates for going 'postal'.

[ASB]

Jawz,

Normally (at least in my experience) you should find a breakdown of the creditors in the notes. Your accountants should advise.

Alan gave some details of the likely culprits. Don't forget this should represent everything the company owed at year end date so this would generally be:-

- Corporation tax (10 months after year end)
- A quarters worth of vat.
- The PAYE and NIC on salarys that has not yet been handed over

Other creditors:-

All bills received but not yet paid (e.g. phone, other utilities)
Sometimes estimates of these if not yet received
Accountancy fees not yet paid
Loans from director [often just implicit]

The latter would arise if, say, the company voted 30k of dividends but you had only drawn 20k. The company owes you 10k - it sits in other creditors.

One point on the latter is that some accountants will tend to ensure that dividends to the limit of the lower band are always declared provided the profit is there to cover them. The reasonaing being that it costs no more in CT and gives more flexibility moving forward (if you have 50k in the DCA then you don't necessarily have to go into the 40% band the year you decide to buy a house or whatever).

If you coan't resolve your issue with a quick call to your accountants then it miht be time to consider a different one.

[Gonzo]

I once asked an accountant friend what the "Good Will" on the balance sheet of a number of companies that I have shares in actually meant. I am still none the wiser.

But, IT people accusing Accountants of talking closed shop language is a really a case of the pot calling the kettle black do you not think?

[xoggoth]

I am betting Nixon Williams is not a very big company then Alan. I always found with accountants that size is inversely proportional to quality service.

Re Jawz's comment about excessive, he may be thinking how can this be due when I have less than that in the bank? I wondered this for ten years over figures showing several k more owing than I had in the bank. Impossible, was I supposed to borrow money to pay myself?

Never seen a BS really explained in an accounting book but if you actually work out the balance sheet from first principles you will find (apart from the errors) that some of the discrepancy is due to the fact that the owed figure necessarily includes the asset value. "Due within one year" seems to be a bit of accountancy jargon not to be taken too seriously.

[Troll]

Doesn't everybody else treat Corporation Tax as optional?

[Nixon Williams]

Last seconded. These figures often are a bit notional. From my own accounts when accountants used to do them I think they just shoved whatever in "other" to make the BS balance since, among other errors, they nearly always got the tax etc wrong by using one month's instead of the quarter's worth that was really owed.

The whole point of doing a balance properly is to weed out any mistakes and most accountants do a crap fudging job IME. I have heard that the IR are starting to concentrate on balance sheets during PAYE check.

As much as it pains me to say it, I agree with much of what you say. Many "accountants" do not have any idea what is included in the Balance Sheet, I see this often when we takeover a new client from another accountant.

We reconcile all the accounts so that we can advise clients if they have overpaid a salary, taxes etc or if an invoice has not been paid in full.

Alan

[xoggoth]

Last seconded. These figures often are a bit notional. From my own accounts when accountants used to do them I think they just shoved whatever in "other" to make the BS balance since, among other errors, they nearly always got the tax etc wrong by using one month's instead of the quarter's worth that was really owed.

The whole point of doing a balance properly is to weed out any mistakes and most accountants do a crap fudging job IME. I have heard that the IR are starting to concentrate on balance sheets during PAYE check.

[Nixon Williams]

Ok thanks Alan, so basically thats something I will need to pay? It seems quite excessive (£22'000) and is usually due a year from year end?

It hard for me to say without seeing the accounts but basiaclly the creditors are monies owed by the company at a given date, generally these will be taxes (CT, VAT, PAYE & NIC) and the directors' account.

Regards

Alan

[Jawz]

Taxation and cocial security costs would usually be VAT, PAYE & NIC owing as at the year end date.

Other creditors would usually be the directors account - monies due to you as at the year end, ie salary, expenses & dividends owing to you but not paid as at the year-end date.

Remember that the Balance Sheet is a snapshot of the assets and liabilities of the company at the year end, these figures will change the next day as money is paid in and out of the bank account.

I hope this helps.

Alan

Ok thanks Alan, so basically thats something I will need to pay? It seems quite excessive (£22'000) and is usually due a year from year end?

[Nixon Williams]

My accountant had just returned a draft of my end of year accounts. So there's corporation tax, but there is something that states:

Creditors: Amounts falling due within one year

Taxation and social security £xxxx
Other creditors £xxx

This appears seperate to the corporation tax, what is it? My personal tax? I'm probably being really thick, but any help is appreciated!

Taxation and cocial security costs would usually be VAT, PAYE & NIC owing as at the year end date.

Other creditors would usually be the directors account - monies due to you as at the year end, ie salary, expenses & dividends owing to you but not paid as at the year-end date.

Remember that the Balance Sheet is a snapshot of the assets and liabilities of the company at the year end, these figures will change the next day as money is paid in and out of the bank account.

I hope this helps.

Alan

[Gonzo]

Ok thanks, it was just that it's pretty high. I have to pay around £10K corporation tax and this other figure was over £20K and I'm not sure how it was calculated.

20K sounds a bit high to be down to the explanation that I gave, but it does depend on how much salary yourCo pays you. Best ask your accountant.

[Jawz]

Ok thanks, it was just that it's pretty high. I have to pay around £10K corporation tax and this other figure was over £20K and I'm not sure how it was calculated.

[Gonzo]

My accountant had just returned a draft of my end of year accounts. So there's corporation tax, but there is something that states:

Creditors: Amounts falling due within one year

Taxation and social security £xxxx
Other creditors £xxx

This appears seperate to the corporation tax, what is it? My personal tax? I'm probably being really thick, but any help is appreciated!

It depends on how your renumeration is structured but if your company pays you a salary greater than £5000 a year (that is not the exact figure but close enough for these purposes and I can't be bothered to look it up on a Sunday afternoon), then there will be some employers NI that your co must pay along with some PAYE tax that your co has deducted on behalf of the Inland Revenue. That may be the figure in question.

Usual disclaimer - I am not an accountant etc etc. But I see NixonWilliams has just logged on so if you are lucky you will get a better answer.

[Jawz]

My accountant had just returned a draft of my end of year accounts. So there's corporation tax, but there is something that states:

Creditors: Amounts falling due within one year

Taxation and social security £xxxx
Other creditors £xxx

This appears seperate to the corporation tax, what is it? My personal tax? I'm probably being really thick, but any help is appreciated!