Reply to: Time to re-open the country

[ladymuck]

Maybe I'm lucky (and the people I know are lucky) but I don't know a single person who has had this virus. I 'know of' two people who have dies (one a friend of my 72 year old Mom, the other a friend of my 82 year old mother in law) - both people went into hospital with different symptoms and contracted the illness in hospital and consequently died of covid. Had they not gone into hospital they in all likelihood would not have died. I wonder how many other hospital deaths are of people who caught the virus whilst in hospital?

Me also. No-one I directly know or one step removed from me has had it, as far as I know.

[Whorty]

That is true, it was 111 who were overwhelmed.

I know about 8 people who have had it now, 1 of them required hospitalisation and they literally asked him to count to 10 and as he took more than 30 seconds, they took him in (He's out and fine now, 56 year old man). The others called 111 and were told that they were 95% sure they had it and to self isolate, there was zero contact tracing, or guidance to tell anyone.

Edited to add this, as I found it interesting, of the 8 people I knew all 8 of them lost taste and smell - mostly with no other symptoms. The fella who went into hospital went crazy - he forgot his sons name, his own name - but remembered that he was a Newcastle United supporter, which was funny.

This whole "the NHS was never overwhelmed" line is a total untruth, the people on the inside rightly say, that once you have to stop your day to day consultations etc, you are overwhelmed.

All the above said in my post - the bbc are reporting our borrowing is the highest since records began - I can only suppose that Brown et al sold a lot of our reserves to be able to pay the bailout for bankers.

Maybe I'm lucky (and the people I know are lucky) but I don't know a single person who has had this virus. I 'know of' two people who have died (one a friend of my 72 year old Mom, the other a friend of my 82 year old mother in law) - both people went into hospital with different symptoms and contracted the illness in hospital and consequently died of covid. Had they not gone into hospital they in all likelihood would not have died. I wonder how many other hospital deaths are of people who caught the virus whilst in hospital?

[Scoobos]

That is true, it was 111 who were overwhelmed.

I know about 8 people who have had it now, 1 of them required hospitalisation and they literally asked him to count to 10 and as he took more than 30 seconds, they took him in (He's out and fine now, 56 year old man). The others called 111 and were told that they were 95% sure they had it and to self isolate, there was zero contact tracing, or guidance to tell anyone.

Edited to add this, as I found it interesting, of the 8 people I knew all 8 of them lost taste and smell - mostly with no other symptoms. The fella who went into hospital went crazy - he forgot his sons name, his own name - but remembered that he was a Newcastle United supporter, which was funny.

This whole "the NHS was never overwhelmed" line is a total untruth, the people on the inside rightly say, that once you have to stop your day to day consultations etc, you are overwhelmed.

All the above said in my post - the bbc are reporting our borrowing is the highest since records began - I can only suppose that Brown et al sold a lot of our reserves to be able to pay the bailout for bankers.

[SueEllen]

They would have found staff for the Nightingales if we were overrun. It would have meant if you ended up at one you were likely to die as the staff wouldn't have been experienced.

Apparently the criteria for hospital admissions was changed the weekend that Boris Johnson went into hospital. Before that the ambulance service were told not to take people who had difficulty breathing like him into hospital. Meaning lots of those who died in the community at the beginning were only counted in ONS stats.

[Scoobos]

Personally, I feel as strongly about the "economy hype" than others do that the virus is overhyped.

Relatively speaking, its not the end of the world financially, but it is to real human beings - and using the term "underlying conditions" seems akin to "collateral damage" , when they include a BMI over 30, Asthma , Diabetes Type 2 (dont 10% of people over 40 have that?) , it doesn't take much to get on the flu jab list either.

If the way our economy is running is that an unprecedented event, with 8 - 12 weeks disruption can put us in a position "that our grandchildren will have to pay for" ; it needs adjusting and fixing.

I may be misunderstanding but looking at GDP and FTSE values, since the last crisis (2008) , it seems we are overplaying the "economy in ruin" card.

FTSE 2008 - Global Financial Crisis - 4700
FTSE Today - 6015

GDP is similar - we are looking at around (sorry cant be arsed with calculator, but 22% ish increase in FTSE?) 16% increase in GDP and the economy has shrank by 2% since January.

Financial Crisis we put down 500BN , immediately, and its estimated over the next two years, by guaranteeing liabilities etc it rose to anything from 800BN to 1.2TN.

That makes this 120BN covid costs look like peanuts. (and they are being cheeky and including public sector workers, who are working, that they'd pay anyway!)

Boris said he was making minor announcements that Sunday, not dropping STAY at home for stay alert and changing the colours from RED To GREEN - I mean it's hardly subtle is it , and it skipped democratic process.

It alarms me that dropping HS2 is not an option, but lets relax lockdown for economic worries??

Really, we're no better prepared than we were for going into lockdown, we've spent the last 7 weeks trying to sort what should have been done in February, and now we will spend the next 2 weeks trying to get Testing, tracing and isolation in, which we should have done before relaxing lockdown.

Were the nightingale hospitals that expensive to run, to separate out Covid facilities and supporting facilities, to allow hospitals to start performing their business as usual operations? They've already 8 weeks to catch up on, which will be impossible without investment anyway. Perhaps its true that it was a white elephant, that we knew we couldn't staff.

Where's the danger to push us into 3rd world territory, other than our leader ruining our chances of negotiating trade deals , when we are looking like we are led by mini-Trump?

<end rant>

[Gibbon]

Nothing is ever black and white that's for sure.

Can't the care homes put a rule in place that is something like, if you risk the whole home then you need to find somewhere else to live? They're (mostly) private facilities that so surely they can add whatever rules they want (some allow puts for e.g. whilst others don't) - they may not be able to take away the civil liberty to leave the care home (which I agree with) but they then can take away the right to re-enter.

Short answer is no, if a resident has capacity they can come and go as they please, it is their home. Most private homes are commissioned by the councils so have to operate council rules, they're not private clubs.

[Whorty]

Agreed on the economy, but other two, whilst in general I agree, are a bit more nuanced.

Does 'fatties' include the likes of Down's Syndrome or Prada Willis, or strong steroid prescriptions or even some forms of kidney dialysis, thought not

Wife having to deal with tricky situations where some care home residents are trying to go out into the community, as is their right. How do you balance someone's liberty against the risk of them bringing infection back in? There is no current legislation in place that overrides the Deprivation of Liberty act. All they can do is try and persuade them not to, and the consequences of quarantine when they return.

Nothing is ever black and white that's for sure.

Can't the care homes put a rule in place that is something like, if you risk the whole home then you need to find somewhere else to live? They're (mostly) private facilities that so surely they can add whatever rules they want (some allow puts for e.g. whilst others don't) - they may not be able to take away the civil liberty to leave the care home (which I agree with) but they then can take away the right to re-enter.

As for fatties, there will always be some exceptions to why people are fat, but on the whole it's because they can't walk past a Greggs without nipping in for a cheese pasty

[Gibbon]

Yep, good enough for me

I do care about a strong economy as that enables us to pay for social services. That is a good thing. Protecting the few to sacrifice the many can only go so far for so long.

I don't have much sympathy for fatties who, through their own greed, have put themselves at risk.

I do care for old people, particularly the poor sods in care homes who have been put in the firing line through no fault of their own.

HTH

Agreed on the economy, but other two, whilst in general I agree, are a bit more nuanced.

Does 'fatties' include the likes of Down's Syndrome or Prada Willis, or strong steroid prescriptions or even some forms of kidney dialysis, thought not

Wife having to deal with tricky situations where some care home residents are trying to go out into the community, as is their right. How do you balance someone's liberty against the risk of them bringing infection back in? There is no current legislation in place that overrides the Deprivation of Liberty act. All they can do is try and persuade them not to, and the consequences of quarantine when they return.

[Whorty]

What about elderly fatties?

If they're a relative and not self isolating, you might want to give them a call.

Edit: or are you asking on behalf of DimPrawn?

[Old Greg]

Yep, good enough for me

I do care about a strong economy as that enables us to pay for social services. That is a good thing. Protecting the few to sacrifice the many can only go so far for so long.

I don't need more money.

I've not had a holiday in 2 years and won't be going again in the near future as wife can't travel

I don't have a BTL portfolio

I do have a German car (well 2). One is a T5 camper, the other is a WAV Caddy - I don't think either are classed a prestigious though.

I don't have much sympathy for fatties who, through their own greed, have put themselves at risk.

I do care for old people, particularly the poor sods in care homes who have been put in the firing line through no fault of their own.

HTH

What about elderly fatties?

[Whorty]

I want more money, luxury holidays, a prestige German car, a booming economy, and all my BTL property porfolios to rise in value, so **** the fat, sugarphobic, old feckers!

I think that's the new mantra isn't it?

Yep, good enough for me

I do care about a strong economy as that enables us to pay for social services. That is a good thing. Protecting the few to sacrifice the many can only go so far for so long.

I don't need more money.

I've not had a holiday in 2 years and won't be going again in the near future as wife can't travel

I don't have a BTL portfolio

I do have a German car (well 2). One is a T5 camper, the other is a WAV Caddy - I don't think either are classed a prestigious though.

I don't have much sympathy for fatties who, through their own greed, have put themselves at risk.

I do care for old people, particularly the poor sods in care homes who have been put in the firing line through no fault of their own.

HTH

[Old Greg]

I want more money, luxury holidays, a prestige German car, a booming economy, and all my BTL property porfolios to rise in value, so **** the fat, sugarphobic, old feckers!

I think that's the new mantra isn't it?

The booming economy item looks a bit too altruistic.

[DimPrawn]

Sorry, should have qualified that a bit more ..... but basic argument is, if Brits were not so fat (same as Yanks) then we'd have less Type 2 and hence less deaths.

Accepting that Type 1 remains a risk and is no ones fault.

I want more money, luxury holidays, a prestige German car, a booming economy, and all my BTL property porfolios to rise in value, so **** the fat, sugarphobic, old feckers!

I think that's the new mantra isn't it?

[Whorty]

Although I agree that a large chunk of Diabetes II is caused by Obesity, it not the only cause. It (as in my case) can be hereditary.

Sorry, should have qualified that a bit more ..... but basic argument is, if Brits were not so fat (same as Yanks) then we'd have less Type 2 and hence less deaths.

Accepting that Type 1 remains a risk and is no ones fault.

[jayn200]

Although I agree that a large chunk of Diabetes II is caused by Obesity, it not the only cause. It (as in my case) can be hereditary.

How old are you? Are you thin? BMI is flawed, lots of skinny fat people who fall into the upper range of normal BMI and have high amounts of abdominal and/or visceral fat which can cause type 2 diabetes.

Of course with advanced age and the right (or wrong I guess) genetics you can still get it while being relatively thin and having low visceral and abdominal fat.

It's more likely that with the growing fat acceptance movement that middle aged people with type 2 diabetes who are fat are led to wrongly believe that their weight has nothing to do with their diabetes.