Reply to: Malvolio this for you - no notice contracts

[Churchill]

Notice periods are an agency thing, not a client one. I've yet to have a client refuse the no notice option and can't think of a business reason why they should want a defined notice period for them to give a contractor. And as I said, I'm not about to walk on a contract short of force majeure, so I don't really need one on my side.

If the agency want to put one in, then fine, but it is only so they can screw a bit more income out of the deal, it's not offering you any other protection and it potentially compromises your IR35 status.

Franko :
...
...because you agreed a price for a piece of work, not a price for x hours undefined labour - not the same thing at all.

£50 for hitting it with a hammer
£1950 for knowing where to hit it with a hammer.

hth.

Churchill - In "Consultancy for beginners" mode!

[malvolio]

Notice periods are an agency thing, not a client one. I've yet to have a client refuse the no notice option and can't think of a business reason why they should want a defined notice period for them to give a contractor. And as I said, I'm not about to walk on a contract short of force majeure, so I don't really need one on my side.

If the agency want to put one in, then fine, but it is only so they can screw a bit more income out of the deal, it's not offering you any other protection and it potentially compromises your IR35 status.

Franko :

No but if you agree to have a plumber to do a 2000 pounds work and after 10 minutes he's in your house you tell him to bugger off, you have the choice of paying the whole amount or have a pipe in your ____

...
...because you agreed a price for a piece of work, not a price for x hours undefined labour - not the same thing at all.

[tim123]

What I'm saying is that if you approach the whole contract as a business supplier and not an Office Angels temp, notice periods have no meaning. That they also help IR35 is merely a bonus.

My problem with this malvilo is that generally it is not "you" deciding to work this way. It is "they". And IME, THEY wont agree to it.

tim

[Francko]

But you're thinking like a permie, not a freelance. If there's no work for you, why should you get paid? Do you pay a plumber not to do anything when you don't have a leak?

No but if you agree to have a plumber to do a 2000 pounds work and after 10 minutes he's in your house you tell him to bugger off, you have the choice of paying the whole amount or have a pipe in your ____ .

[malvolio]

. So at least you have a little termination compensation which I don't really see it as a benefit for permies.

But you're thinking like a permie, not a freelance. If there's no work for you, why should you get paid? Do you pay a plumber not to do anything when you don't have a leak?

[Ardesco]

Must admit I have had my swipe card taken off me and then been marched of a site once when a contract ended. Was quite amusing really as they then decided to change all the passwords in the test lab as I had domain admin access.

The dopey gits then had to call me back and ask for the passwords as they didn't know them. I still occasionally get calls from the guys in the test lab asking how something was set up, because they don't know and the current team lead can't work it out.

All a case of HR being paranoid, lets face it if I had really wanted to screw them over i'd have just created some extra domain admin accounts when I had access and not told them, or refused to provide the passwords they asked for.

I don't understand how HR can be so paranoid to be honest. If I wasn't trustworthy I should not have been given Domain Admin access in the first place, and secondly do they really think I would want to damage my professional reputation by screwing about with thier system once I had gone? If anything the whole marching off the premises thing would only increase the chances of pissing me off and encourage me to do something stupid...

[Sockpuppet]

In most financial companies they would escort you off the site on the day of terminating your contract. So at least you have a little termination compensation which I don't really see it as a benefit for permies.

Most companies escort you off site if you are fired. Save for the place I got ditched from the manager let me find my own way out. Lazy 'tard.

[Francko]

I wouldn't have thought so. Most managers will go on your performance and if they know in advance they have to downsize the team, why not get rid of the ones who have a notice period. That means that the ones that are left can be dropped instantly if something horrible comes up

In most financial companies they would escort you off the site on the day of terminating your contract. So at least you have a little termination compensation which I don't really see it as a benefit for permies.

[Ardesco]

I wouldn't have thought so. Most managers will go on your performance and if they know in advance they have to downsize the team, why not get rid of the ones who have a notice period. That means that the ones that are left can be dropped instantly if something horrible comes up

Secondly you are assuming that the manager has actually read your contract. In my experiance they normally haven't and have no idea what your specific terms and conditions are.

[Francko]

No, basically I don't care. I'm not any kind of employee, I don't need notice periods. I'm not going to leave before the end of the contracted period. The client can send me home at any time for any one of a dozen reasons without explanation anyway. I've twice had early terminations due to the programme being cancelled in the middle. On both occasions I was gone within 24 hours. It happens.

I might give you respect for this choice but yet I don't see how having a notice period cannot be considered a business choice. You can call it early termination penalty, many businesses apply this when they provide a service.

[malvolio]

No, basically I don't care. I'm not any kind of employee, I don't need notice periods. I'm not going to leave before the end of the contracted period. The client can send me home at any time for any one of a dozen reasons without explanation anyway. I've twice had early terminations due to the programme being cancelled in the middle. On both occasions I was gone within 24 hours. It happens.

Bit the existence of any notice period of any length indicates that you expect to get paid when there is no work for you to do. That's the IR35 issue, not necessarily the financial risk. It's only ever going to be a weak one either way, but every little helps.

[Francko]

What I'm saying is that if you approach the whole contract as a business supplier and not an Office Angels temp, notice periods have no meaning. That they also help IR35 is merely a bonus.

I agree with what you said from a business point of view but then again, don't you think you are in a much more vulnerable positions than all the other contractors who have a notice period?

What if the notice period is something smaller like 1-2 weeks? Would it still help to be anti-ir35 ?

[malvolio]

You're missing one point. If a contract is for a deliverable, there is no need for a notice period since you either make the deliverable and leave or don't and the client asks you to leave.

Anyway, since most contracts are actually for a lump of someone's time to provide something ongoing, then both sides need to understand how to stop: I would argue that the contractor shouldn't stop anyway until the end of the contract (unless something serious has happened, and if so what about subs to finish the work?) whereas the client must have the ability to send you home at once (and if it's not a notice period they'll do you for failing to observe canteen HSE rules or something).
What I'm saying is that if you approach the whole contract as a business supplier and not an Office Angels temp, notice periods have no meaning. That they also help IR35 is merely a bonus.

[Francko]

I think the best way to do this is a no notice period but write in there a amount fo time to carry out corrective work so they cant duff you for sub standard ness.

Not that I would care about the notice period but wouldn't be happy to be the first on the line to go because I have no additional cost compared to other contractors.

Not sure what you are proposing SP... the time to carry out corrective work wouldn't be the same as a notice period then?

[Sockpuppet]

I think the best way to do this is a no notice period but write in there a amount fo time to carry out corrective work so they cant duff you for sub standard ness.