Reply to: Which one of you is this? Times report on private sector IR35

[GreenMirror]

Inside means they get the tax and they'll make the rules so everyone is inside one way or another.

That is what concerns me. All these posts "I am alright - everyone will be caught except me" are worrying. Though expected.

[Hobosapien]

The consultation response highlgihts that while there is a penalty for the end client if they make an outside declaration that is proved wrong, there is no penalty for a case where they make an inside declaration and that is wrong. There is no real right of appeal and nothing to make sure that there is a duty of care that the statute says should exist.

Perhaps the Finance Act will provide a penalty and a decent appeal mechanism to encourage companies from making those assessments. At the moment there is little incentive for clients to do things properly.

No surprise if the government will only enforce a penalty where an outside determination is wrong. Same as with blanket inside determinations there will be just shoulders shrugged. Inside means they get the tax and they'll make the rules so everyone is inside one way or another.

[AtW]

If they had asked you, they would assume we all live in Some god foresaken Swindon hell hole and keep all our money in gold bars under the bed.

FTFY

[DeludedKitten]

My prediction: Private sector clients will blanket deem all contracts to be inside IR35 as the HR risk assessment will demand it. Some clients will increase the rate to compensate. Both as already seen in the public sector.

The consultation response highlgihts that while there is a penalty for the end client if they make an outside declaration that is proved wrong, there is no penalty for a case where they make an inside declaration and that is wrong. There is no real right of appeal and nothing to make sure that there is a duty of care that the statute says should exist.

Perhaps the Finance Act will provide a penalty and a decent appeal mechanism to encourage companies from making those assessments. At the moment there is little incentive for clients to do things properly.

[GreenMirror]

What the hell have you done woman!

Now everyone thinks we only earn £100k, and pay some ridiculously large amount of tax like £20k pa!

If they had asked you, they would assume we all live in Some god foresaken Wiltshire hell hole and keep all our money in gold bars under the bed.

[LondonManc]

You're assuming the story was accurately reported.

He's a contractor....

[DimPrawn]

You're assuming the story was accurately reported.

What the hell have you done woman!

Now everyone thinks we only earn £100k, and pay some ridiculously large amount of tax like £20k pa!

[mudskipper]

Shouldn't the tax-evading scumbag ....

You're assuming the story was accurately reported.

[Hobosapien]

My prediction: Private sector clients will blanket deem all contracts to be inside IR35 as the HR risk assessment will demand it. Some clients will increase the rate to compensate. Both as already seen in the public sector.

Silver lining: Agencies will become obsolete, as their main attraction to clients was to be a barrier between them and individuals that HMRC may deem to be disguised employees. The tax problem if caught was with the contractor. In the new world the tax problem lies with the client if they deem contract outside IR35 and are proven wrong by HMRC. So clients will find agencies offer no value, do the hiring directly themselves, and thus be able to offer higher rate to contractor via way of repurposing what would have been the agency's cut.

Sting in the tail: Clients will therefore resort to temp employment of contractors by FTC style arrangement, seeing as inside IR35 the contractor is an employee so may as well go on the client's payroll.

Silver lining: No more need for PSC or brolly, so less overhead and aggro with admin/paperwork. Not so bad as long as the contract allows the flexibility and avoidance of full-blown-permie indoctrination.

The price you pay for being a 'bum on seat' contractor.

Solution: B2B contractor where it's not you as an individual that's named on the contract.

[WordIsBond]

The issue clients have in the public sector at the moment is they are competing for resources against outside roles within the public sector.

And that will happen in the private sector, too.

[pjt]

You missed out option 4 and 5. These are, clients offshore the work or only work with consultancies offering a turn key solution.

This idea some people have that rates are suddenly going to rise because they did for some public sector roles also miss another point. When the public and private sectors become aligned with the updated IR35 rules, the public sector no longer needs to maintain a higher paying rate to retain its contractor resource. Rates will likely drop.

I doubt it. The issue clients have in the public sector at the moment is they are competing for resources against outside roles within the public sector.. When I look at roles I haven't yet had to take an inside one. The only time I even considered it was when they upped the rate. When public and private align you will still see outside roles. These will be very much more desirable than inside. So the inside roles will need to offer more or see the quality of candidates drop.

I'm in a pretty small niche and the amount of people completing for the roles is small so this may not be the same everywhere. I can only account for what I've seen.

[BolshieBastard]

They have 3 choices then, either work with suppliers to agree contracts that puts them outside, pay higher rates or struggle to get decent contractors to do the work. Remember this is a market and the market will work in our favour just as it has in the public sector.

I've seen clients struggle to get inside roles filled even at the higher rates. Again the market is our friend in this!

You missed out option 4 and 5. These are, clients offshore the work or only work with consultancies offering a turn key solution.

This idea some people have that rates are suddenly going to rise because they did for some public sector roles also miss another point. When the public and private sectors become aligned with the updated IR35 rules, the public sector no longer needs to maintain a higher paying rate to retain its contractor resource. Rates will likely drop.

[original PM]

Not a bloody chance.

Btw, option 6 was the one for me - I spent 12 months with the client at the Worcester office - 120 miles from home, they made me an offer to go staff from their Bolton office - 6 miles from home, a (very)decent salary, very good pension. At my team of life and with my circumstances, the decision was an easy one to make.

6. Give up and go permy.

Very good point this.

It can make a huge quality of life difference if you commute less than 30 minutes per day and only have to work sensible hours (this idea that anyone permie on a decent salary has to work a 90 hour week is rubbish)

More time with the family can go out in the evenings etc

Not having to scout around for a new job every 6 months.

[Scotslaw]

I was discussing this with client permies. The fact is, you can have 50 morons and they still won't be able to solve the issues that one reasonably intelligent person can deal with in an hour, no matter how long they try.

This mirrors my experience with financial services clients.
About 20 years ago, when Indian body shops were seen as the inevitable end of local employment (permie and contracting), a lot of large employers downsized and outsourced/offshored literally thousands of jobs.
Within a few years of horrendous experiences, many of the jobs were brought back to the UK as either permie or contract.
The reason most clients go for talent locally (employees or contractors), is because they have settled on a model which provides them the productivity/output they can live with at a cost that pleases the shareholders. Clients have learned to get the maximum possible value from outsourcing, without risking service levels and project delivery.
Any reduction in contractors wouldn't necessarily drive jobs to Indian providers, as this would cause the productivity/output to dip below what clients are prepared to live with.

[swamp]

So the employment status will be determined by the end client. Do we expect clients to put every contractor under IR35 or can we expect there will be not much change and end clients will still prefer to have contractors outside IR35?

Some points of optimism:

The Government will find it much harder to strong-arm large private companies into issuing blanket assessments, as they did with NHS.

QDOS meanwhile have developed 'Off payroll compliance management solution'
Off-Payroll Compliance - Public Sector IR35 -Qdos Contractor which includes an insurance component.

HMRC have promised to modify CEST to include MOO.

A number of recent 'employment rights' cases suggest that blanket inside determinations may not be risk-free for the client/agency.