Reply to: Professional Working Day

[WTFH]

P.s.The client asked for 40hrs to remain in the contract because I spoke to him about it. Just because you speak with conviction doesn't make it accurate.

Have you read your contract that you signed with your agent? What does it say about discussing the terms and conditions of your contract with the client?

I prefer to live in the real world with real people.

I prefer not to use agents, I write my own contracts and get the client to sign them.
When I've done that I have never had a client ask me to include hours worked per day or per week, or the times the office was open.

[jungleboogy]

You have wasted a lot of our time, and still you refuse to accept what most of us are saying. It's not about the number of posts, but the experience.
If a client takes on a contractor at a daily rate, it will be extremely rare that they specify the working hours that they mean by that rate. For a client that is madness, it ties them to how many hours they expect you to do per day.
Clients do NOT set the working hours. You're the only one on here who keeps saying they do.
Agents set that because they have it in their standard contracts.

The only things in the 10 page contract that change depending on the client are:
1. Client name & address
2. Rate
3. Start date/end date of contract (or total number of days)
4. Approx total value of contract (point 2 multiplied by point 3)
5. Location of work
6. Expenses

The precise start time and end time per day are not on that list. The number of hours making up a day are not on that list. Those things are done by the agent, not the client.
The agent wants to get max billing from you.
The client wants to get max time/output from you.

It is not in the client's best interest to limit your hours to 8 per day or 40 per week. It is in the client's best interest to leave that open. If it takes 10 hours per day, that's what you work. You don't automatically claim it back in lieu. You don't get extra pay for doing a couple of hours extra.
That's part of why the client wants a contractor, not a permie.
And those are all the exact reasons why an agent prefers hours rather than PWDs, because the agent has the option to make more money.

In your experience the client does not set the hours but that's YOUR experience. Not every client and agency relationship is the same, experience will tell you that. "most of us"...well that's like the government saying we canvassed 7 people and 4 agreed with our policy so that must be representative of the UK population.

P.s.The client asked for 40hrs to remain in the contract because I spoke to him about it. Just because you speak with conviction doesn't make it accurate.

Like I said in other posts we can agree to disagree that's what life is about. Nothing personal......others can take it down that route if they want. I prefer to live in the real world with real people.

[WTFH]

Not all...you don't need to have thousands of posts on this forum to be an experienced contractor. By framework, I'm talking about working hours (or PWD), no. of days, location etc, rate less agency commission obviously. Are you trying to say the client doesn't sit down with the agency and spell out their expectations of contractors coming on board. And yes the contract the agency has with the client can supercede everything documented in the contract between us. Anyway.....enough time wasted on this subject.

You have wasted a lot of our time, and still you refuse to accept what most of us are saying. It's not about the number of posts, but the experience.
If a client takes on a contractor at a daily rate, it will be extremely rare that they specify the working hours that they mean by that rate. For a client that is madness, it ties them to how many hours they expect you to do per day.
Clients do NOT set the working hours. You're the only one on here who keeps saying they do.
Agents set that because they have it in their standard contracts.

The only things in the 10 page contract that change depending on the client are:
1. Client name & address
2. Rate
3. Start date/end date of contract (or total number of days)
4. Approx total value of contract (point 2 multiplied by point 3)
5. Location of work
6. Expenses

The precise start time and end time per day are not on that list. The number of hours making up a day are not on that list. Those things are done by the agent, not the client.
The agent wants to get max billing from you.
The client wants to get max time/output from you.

It is not in the client's best interest to limit your hours to 8 per day or 40 per week. It is in the client's best interest to leave that open. If it takes 10 hours per day, that's what you work. You don't automatically claim it back in lieu. You don't get extra pay for doing a couple of hours extra.
That's part of why the client wants a contractor, not a permie.
And those are all the exact reasons why an agent prefers hours rather than PWDs, because the agent has the option to make more money.

[jungleboogy]

You're new to professional contracting aren't you?

Have you ever actually read an agent's contract end to end, then compared it to contracts from other agents for other roles? The client will give a timeframe. Everything else is dictated by the agent.

Have you ever gone direct with a client? You know, where you draw up the contract, you put in the terms, you put in framework.

Not all...you don't need to have thousands of posts on this forum to be an experienced contractor. By framework, I'm talking about working hours (or PWD), no. of days, location etc, rate less agency commission obviously. Are you trying to say the client doesn't sit down with the agency and spell out their expectations of contractors coming on board. And yes the contract the agency has with the client can supercede everything documented in the contract between us. Anyway.....enough time wasted on this subject.

[MrMarkyMark]

Of course they set the framework. Duration is under their control as well as working hours and pattern. Rate I agree they'll argue over but come on the client is pulling the strings. Legals and not wanting to consult the client to change the contract 100% agree with you on that one !

I agree with WTFH you are showing your ignorance on that one.
Different agency contracts for the same client can be very different.
At mine I've witnessed rate cuts not being able to apply to some contracts, some contracts paying a full day for 5 hours, some not etc.

[Lost It]

I work direct for my Client, in the building trade it's slightly different as in winter, external work is somewhat restricted by light levels and weather conditions but:

I have a day rate contract. My day is whatever I need to do to make the work happen, in summer, I tend to leave home to get to work at 07:00 depending on noise restrictions, in order to sort the pre work permits and or induct new workers etc. I leave usually 1/2 hour after the last worker has gone so that I can make the site secure.

In winter, there's no real point getting there at 07:00 if it doesn't get light until 08:30, and mid winter it's dark enough outsie to stop work at 15:30 anyway, but my working day is still paid.

When I was in the office, I got in at 07:00, it's empty, I can crack on with stuff, so I'd set up the coffee machine, empty the dishwasher, do a bit of "site maintenance" and the rest of the office starts to trickle in at 08:30/09:00. I watched them for a while, they would all pack up and leave circe 17:00 so I started packing up at 15:00, having worked the same hours as them but started 2 hours earlier, I couldn't see the problem?

I was pulled aside by the boss, who asked me why I wasn't "working the full day". Wouldn't accept my answer, no, I need to work the same hours as everyone else...

So I started going in at 09:00 and leaving at 17:00 with the rest of them.

A week later there was a complaint that the coffee machine wasn't on, so no hot drinks when they came in, the dishwasher was still full, the office was cold, and could they complain to the "Morning staff" that they weren't doing their job. Saw my gaffer later that day, winked at him, carried on working.

But it's generally agreed now, if I don't need to go in to get done what I need to do, there's no point me riding all the way to Head Ofice just to sit at a computer. I can do that from home. I do it roughly twice a week.
Sometimes....

[WTFH]

Of course they set the framework. Duration is under their control as well as working hours and pattern. Rate I agree they'll argue over but come on the client is pulling the strings. Legals and not wanting to consult the client to change the contract 100% agree with you on that one !

You're new to professional contracting aren't you?

Have you ever actually read an agent's contract end to end, then compared it to contracts from other agents for other roles? The client will give a timeframe. Everything else is dictated by the agent.

Have you ever gone direct with a client? You know, where you draw up the contract, you put in the terms, you put in framework.

[jungleboogy]

Do you seriously believe that?

The client does not set the "framework" of your contract with the agent.
The client and agent argue over a rate and length of contract, the agent sends the client their standard client contract with those numbers dropped in.
The agent sends you their standard contractor contract with the same length, but a reduced rate.
The only other changes between contracts relate to industry specifics, e.g. Security clearance & insurance.

The agent has standard contracts that have been agreed with their legal team. They will not want to vary from that as that would require them to go back to the legal team to get agreement on the new contracts - not just to the contractor but also the end client. Why would they go to that expense when they can just lie to you and say "Client says no"?

Of course they set the framework. Duration is under their control as well as working hours and pattern. Rate I agree they'll argue over but come on the client is pulling the strings. Legals and not wanting to consult the client to change the contract 100% agree with you on that one !

[WTFH]

The contract is with the agent, they just followed a framework set by the client.

Do you seriously believe that?

The client does not set the "framework" of your contract with the agent.
The client and agent argue over a rate and length of contract, the agent sends the client their standard client contract with those numbers dropped in.
The agent sends you their standard contractor contract with the same length, but a reduced rate.
The only other changes between contracts relate to industry specifics, e.g. Security clearance & insurance.

The agent has standard contracts that have been agreed with their legal team. They will not want to vary from that as that would require them to go back to the legal team to get agreement on the new contracts - not just to the contractor but also the end client. Why would they go to that expense when they can just lie to you and say "Client says no"?

[MrMarkyMark]

I always discuss flexibility at interview with the client. Some actually bring it up with me.

I had one potential client wanting me in at exactly 9am for no reason. I got home and told the agent I wouldn't be accepting the contract. The reason I turned it down is I had the potential to commute to either of their sites but I consided being stuck in traffic for an extra 30-40 minutes due to their rigidity a waste of my time.

Funny, in my experience, that is the best thing to do as well.

[SueEllen]

The contract is with the agent, they just followed a framework set by the client. Yes maybe it could have been discussed at interview but in my experience it's never been an issue to amend that particular wording if it appears in the contract. Anyway....has been resolved now so all good in the end.

I always discuss flexibility at interview with the client. Some actually bring it up with me.

I had one potential client wanting me in at exactly 9am for no reason. I got home and told the agent I wouldn't be accepting the contract. The reason I turned it down is I had the potential to commute to either of their sites but I consided being stuck in traffic for an extra 30-40 minutes due to their rigidity a waste of my time.

[jungleboogy]

Great.

I'll say it again, try discussing at interview, rather than post interview with the agent.

As I said, that's the bit I don't get with this....

The contract is with the agent, they just followed a framework set by the client. Yes maybe it could have been discussed at interview but in my experience it's never been an issue to amend that particular wording if it appears in the contract. Anyway....has been resolved now so all good in the end.

[MrMarkyMark]

Well this has been enlightening, now that the contract is sealed I'll get back to delivering a professional service to the client as always. Happy in the knowledge that I can work late or finish early to collect my kids and not be in breach of contract. Everyone satisfied but for some reason you guys see that as unprofessional. My view is good negotiation skills and upfront honesty.

Great.

I'll say it again, try discussing at interview, rather than post interview with the agent.

As I said, that's the bit I don't get with this....

[jungleboogy]

Well this has been enlightening, now that the contract is sealed I'll get back to delivering a professional service to the client as always. Happy in the knowledge that I can work late or finish early to collect my kids and not be in breach of contract. Everyone satisfied but for some reason you guys see that as unprofessional. My view is good negotiation skills and upfront honesty.

[MrMarkyMark]

Quite easily. He does a Professional Working Day, being professional with his clients, fellow contractors, permies, and agents.

Hence why some days you don't "see" him.

Pretty much the same for the rest of us really.