Reply to: Where are the treehuggers?

[xoggoth]

Absolutely ForumBore, nice to hear The Times is copying Bloggoth too. If anyone looks on the religious freedom reports by the US government you see this all too clearly. It is true that there are some genuinely tolerant Islamic societies, nearly all in Africa, but elsewhere, in the middle east, far east and south east Asia, it a different story.

[Forumbore]

why Chico is not wrong

Thunderer in the Times today says it for me.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...442565,00.html

Why is the Muslim sense of victimhood so inflated, given that many Muslim societies won’t put their own houses in order? And why is this double standard downplayed so much in Britain?

Mohammad Siddique Khan, ringleader of the July 7 bombers, justified his action as revenge for the killing of Muslims by Western forces in the Middle East. Dhiren Barot, sentenced yesterday for plotting to kill thousands of civilians, gave a similar rationale for his crimes. Much has been said about the moral squalor of these comments, but far less about their sheer incoherence.



Let us grant that the invasion of Iraq was a mistake, and overlook the inconvenient fact that most Muslim deaths there are now the fault of other Muslims. Forget the equally unpalatable truth that large majorities of Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo and Afghanistan support Western intervention in their countries. Look instead beyond Iraq and Afghanistan, back well before 9/11, and you see innumerable Christian communities on the defensive against rampant forms of Islam.

Siddique Khan and his associates were allowed to practise their religion freely in Britain, but there is scarcely a country from Morocco to Iraq in which Christians are able to worship without harassment.

Though horrifying, the carnage in Iraq is dwarfed by that of Sudan, where the Islamic Government has been responsible for killing two million Christian and other non-Muslim civilians since 1989.

Christians in Turkey, Jordan and Pakistan, among other countries, live in regular fear of attack, and there is strong evidence that the attitudes underlying such aggression are fomented through official channels. In a recent letter to Kofi Annan, campaigners for the charity Christian Solidarity International wrote that “the role of the Saudi-based Organisation of the Islamic Conference, representing 57 Muslim states, in creating a climate for violent confrontation is a cause of deep concern”.

The reason we hear so little about religious oppression in the Muslim world is straightforward: young Christians in the West don’t become “radicalised”, and persecuted Christians tend not to respond with violence. That should make them more worthy of attention and support, not less.

[xoggoth]

We can all only go on what we have read of course, but according to the DT he had met terrorist leaders, acquired books and made extensive notes on explosives, researched explosives using a forged uni pass and made detailed presentation on planned attacks, not just outlined notes, he had checked out means of exit and entry to hotels. According to his own words he countless weeks on it.

[Chico]

I just hope we do not have namby pamby PC brigade in charge of our security services ever - more of the same please. Catch the terrorists before they strike.

[Emperor Dalek]

You're missing the point

That's fine, but I don't want an intelligence operation "unusual for its vast scale and complexity" used to do it that results in one clown locked up, and that probably only because he was badly (from his point of view) advised to plead guilty, while the real danger men are left free to get on with it, just so the government can be seen to be doing something by the hard of thinking.

[Mordac]

all they have to show for it is one loose-tongued, clueless fool of a front man

I'm not sure that what he had in mind for those of us who live and work in London fits that description. After 7/7 I would happily throw anyone who even pretends to support terrorism on that scale in Belmarsh for 40 years, and I don't give a flying f**k about his human f**king rights.

[Emperor Dalek]

So how did this "fantasist" manage to lose several MI5 watchers, who quickly realised he had been expertly trained in counter-surveillance (and God know what else)?
It was believed he spent approx 2 years (iirc) in terrorist training camps in Afghanistan and Pakistan. So what do you idiots think we should have done to him? 200 hours community service and a £50 fine?

Look, Mordac, I'm not saying he hasn't done anything wrong. Conspiring to commit terrorist offences has been a serious offence since the 1970s, but this was reckoned to be an operation "unusual for its vast scale and complexity" and all they have to show for it is one loose-tongued, clueless fool of a front man who was only banged up because he pleaded guilty on the advice of his brief who had been assured he would get a light sentence. Even the prosecution were shocked at the severity of the sentence. Had he pleaded not guilty I'm not convinced a conviction would have resulted.

If anyone thinks this was a good use of scarce intelligence resources, when the real danger men are running around laughing their socks off, is living in cloud cuckoo land. This is just another from the "chemical bomb attack on Old Trafford foiled" school of intelligence work, to keep the public reassured that the government "is doing something".

[shaunbhoy]

Don't be ridiculous Mordac. They would really have thrown the book at him had we unleashed the full wrath of the leftie brigade at him. Have you ever heard of an ASBO??

[Mordac]

Sorry, lads, this is a fantasist.

So he was going to simultaneously:

- Blow up a limousine full of gas cylinders
- Set off a dirty bomb in London
- Attack a train
- Hi-jack a petrol tanker and ram a refinery
- Flood the tube network
- Attack some US financial institutions

Would have been a busy day for him then. He is not one of the real bad guys (where are the people who were going to procure the supplies and carry out the operation?) and if wasting scarce intelligence resources in an operation "unusual for its vast scale and the complexity" worrying about every loose tongued fool on the internet and banging him up for life makes you feel safe at night, good for you.

I feel it's no coincidence his name is an anagram of Borat.

So how did this "fantasist" manage to lose several MI5 watchers, who quickly realised he had been expertly trained in counter-surveillance (and God know what else)?
It was believed he spent approx 2 years (iirc) in terrorist training camps in Afghanistan and Pakistan. So what do you idiots think we should have done to him? 200 hours community service and a £50 fine?

[shaunbhoy]

Yeah,
but what the fook do you know? You're a fooking Dalek. You can't even get up the stairs!!!

Chico

[Emperor Dalek]

The prosecution conceded the police had not found any evidence that materials had been acquired to carry out the plans, but said officers had also failed to find weapons to which Barot had access.

Defence lawyer Ian Macdonald QC referred to the main part of the conspiracy as, in Barot's words, a "rough presentation". Mr Justice Butterfield said Barot had not achieved any of his terror goals and that, on the evidence, he had not "moved to the final stages of achieving them". But he added that this was no thanks to him.

The court heard Barot prepared meticulous plans for al-Qaeda figures on a series of synchronised attacks in the UK. "The central plan was for the construction and deployment in a basement car park underneath a building of an improvised explosive device using gas cylinders hidden in limousines," said Edmund Lawson QC, prosecuting.

Mr Lawson added it was to be launched simultaneously with other attacks including a dirty bomb, an attack on trains, and the hijacking of petrol tankers to be rammed into a target. In the document, Barot had written his primary objective of the project was to "inflict mass damage and chaos".

The court heard Barot's plot also included plans to detonate a bomb under the River Thames to flood the Tube network and potentially drown hundreds of commuters.

Barot also planned to strike a number of US financial institutions. His plans for bombings in the US were initiated before the 11 September attacks, and Barot is not thought to have had any advance knowledge of them.

Sorry, lads, this is a fantasist.

So he was going to simultaneously:

- Blow up a limousine full of gas cylinders
- Set off a dirty bomb in London
- Attack a train
- Hi-jack a petrol tanker and ram a refinery
- Flood the tube network
- Attack some US financial institutions

Would have been a busy day for him then. He is not one of the real bad guys (where are the people who were going to procure the supplies and carry out the operation?) and if wasting scarce intelligence resources in an operation "unusual for its vast scale and the complexity" worrying about every loose tongued fool on the internet and banging him up for life makes you feel safe at night, good for you.

I feel it's no coincidence his name is an anagram of Borat.

[xoggoth]

Internet fantasist? Many young Muslim men probably are no more than that, I suppose regularly suggesting we should stab Blair makes me a terrorist in theory.

However, if somebody is an associate or member of a terrorist organisation, has met terrorist leaders and not only makes up a list of targets but has actively researched means and methods, he has rather gone beyond being a mere fantasist. Conspiracy to commit a crime like this is rightly a crime in itself and anyone who acts in this way needs to be confined for the protection of the rest of us.

Blatant naivety is right. There are some total idiots on this board.

[Chico]

Look, I'll try and explain it simply. Chico feels safer because one deluded internet fantasist has been dragged through the courts. The real bad guys are still out there laughing at us as we cut off our hard won freedoms one by one.

This is the sort of blatant naivety which gets my goat. Terrorists and suicide bombers for that matter are not your normal criminals were after they commit the crime you arrest and try them in a court of law etc. With suicide bombers and terrorists the onus is on preventing them from carrying out their murderous activities. Do you get it?

[Emperor Dalek]

So how the f**k are you supposed to prove someone is guilty unless you "drag them through the legal system"? Quite apart from the fact he pleaded guilty!

Look, I'll try and explain it simply. Chico feels safer because one deluded internet fantasist has been dragged through the courts. The real bad guys are still out there laughing at us as we cut off our hard won freedoms one by one.

[mmc71]

Shut the fook up Blair

Hell, dont confuse me with Blairs lot!