Reply to: Are low-ranking universities bad for our children?

[SueEllen]

Dunno about the money side, but child#2 did fashion design at university. It's what she was passionate about and what she wanted to do.

In the old days, she would probably have done a diploma at a poly, but now it's a degree or don't bother.

She now has 40K+ of 'student loan' and is working 3 days a week unpaid as a graduate intern - ATM, not even her travel expenses are paid, so it's costing £100+ a week.

An apprenticeship would have been far, far better.

Depends.

I knew people older than me getting degrees in textiles and fashion in the 90s from ex-polys.

The advantage they all had was the ex-polys had proper links with industry so they all spent their summers getting paid jobs in companies. So when they left most had a job already.

The courses had limited places as well. So they weren't producing more graduates than there were jobs for. In fact some of the textiles courses couldn't get sufficient number of students.

The students, even the straight out of school ones, seemed to have spent a lot of time working in clothes shops and making their own things.

Kids can't get jobs now until they are 16 and loads don't have high level sewing, knitting and similar skills.

I discovered recently lots of men and women over 35 I know had been taught to knit, sew etc at home by someone or in primary school. It was then left up to you whether you carried on and developed the skill.

Anyway roll on to the mid-00s, and one of my siblings did a degree in fashion from one of those well regarded ex-polys. Unfortunately for her most clothes manufacturing had moved abroad leaving niche manufacturing businesses, and jobs like buyers for stores.

She did run an eBay shop selling her own bags she made for a bit while she was doing her first few post-uni jobs. I couldn't understand why until I saw some news stuff about people in those niche manufacturing businesses that make bags, rain coats, shoes etc. Lots of their young apprentices had degrees in fashion.

So to get a proper apprenticeship were you only use to need some GCSE equivalents and show some aptitude, you now need a degree and a portfolio.

[mudskipper]

I think the graduate intern thing is a real sham and should be stopped although it's probably undoubtedly good for the CV. Interns should really be paid minimum wage at the very least while they get their experience.

This highlights my point about the amount of debt though and that's for something she was passionate about!

It is illegal - they should be paid min wage, but it is also widespread. She's been promised a job from July - if that does not materialise, I will encourage her to report them (but doubt she will)

[ShandyDrinker]

It was New Labour's grand plan to get everybody to do a Media Studies degree, which by the way involves just drinking and partying, then get a council job which requires a degree, and do a pen pushing job from 9 - 5 and earn 40K. These public sector jobs were cushy, no work, just do 9-5 and pocket a lot of dosh. If both partners did the same, 80K household income for doing nothing. BUT, they were now dependent on the state job, because no private sector job would pay the same. So come elections keep voting New Labour. Why do you think we are borrowing billions every month, because we are paying Media Studies monkeys a lot of cash for just turning up.

For me what made it worse was that for a little while where I was living at the time the state sector IT jobs were paying much better than the private sector for less hours, less stress and much better pension. Those that have hung on in there are still paid very well for what they do.

[fullyautomatix]

No, bad, lazy, feckless students are bad for our children.

Worse thing that happened to FE was when Tony Blair said he wanted 50% of people to go to Uni, why! Not everyone needs a degree, and most of the crap degrees are next to useless (Media Studies etc) especially given now most jobs start as unpaid interns.

Focus more on apprenticeships and the world will be a better place

It was New Labour's grand plan to get everybody to do a Media Studies degree, which by the way involves just drinking and partying, then get a council job which requires a degree, and do a pen pushing job from 9 - 5 and earn 40K. These public sector jobs were cushy, no work, just do 9-5 and pocket a lot of dosh. If both partners did the same, 80K household income for doing nothing. BUT, they were now dependent on the state job, because no private sector job would pay the same. So come elections keep voting New Labour. Why do you think we are borrowing billions every month, because we are paying Media Studies monkeys a lot of cash for just turning up.

[ShandyDrinker]

Dunno about the money side, but child#2 did fashion design at university. It's what she was passionate about and what she wanted to do.

In the old days, she would probably have done a diploma at a poly, but now it's a degree or don't bother.

She now has 40K+ of 'student loan' and is working 3 days a week unpaid as a graduate intern - ATM, not even her travel expenses are paid, so it's costing £100+ a week.

An apprenticeship would have been far, far better.

I think the graduate intern thing is a real sham and should be stopped although it's probably undoubtedly good for the CV. Interns should really be paid minimum wage at the very least while they get their experience.

This highlights my point about the amount of debt though and that's for something she was passionate about!

[mudskipper]

Have you looked at some of the roles offered by the national apprenticeship scheme lately?
The money is well just plain silly barely more than JSA so hardly an incentive.

Dunno about the money side, but child#2 did fashion design at university. It's what she was passionate about and what she wanted to do.

In the old days, she would probably have done a diploma at a poly, but now it's a degree or don't bother.

She now has 40K+ of 'student loan' and is working 3 days a week unpaid as a graduate intern - ATM, not even her travel expenses are paid, so it's costing £100+ a week.

An apprenticeship would have been far, far better.

[BigRed]

Sounds defeatist. I mean that in a nice way. I say that also for my own sake. Knowledge is limited, imagination encircles the world. Some of the clients I work for today involves research on some of the most exciting projects I'm just glad to be a part of them.

I still don't know what I want to do with my life. I rather hope I never do.

I don't know either, but I've discovered working as a permie isn't it

[scooterscot]

Sounds defeatist. I mean that in a nice way. I say that also for my own sake. Knowledge is limited, imagination encircles the world. Some of the clients I work for today involves research on some of the most exciting projects I'm just glad to be a part of them.

I still don't know what I want to do with my life. I rather hope I never do.

[ShandyDrinker]

Isn't that what your guidance teacher is for? Tuning into your strengths/interests and focusing them in a particular direction? An expectation of any good school I should hope.

I never had a doubt my future would involve studying some form of electronics.

That's fine when you know what you want to do but it isn't so clear cut for everyone. I stand by my point that kids (or even parents) can no longer afford the luxury (unless they're seriously wealthy) of just going to study something because it interests them hence why other comments on this thread about apprenticeships are so valid.

Although I don't really know anyone in academia anymore, I would imagine research is now very much the same unless you're very lucky; research for the sheer sake (or blue skies research) of it is probably becoming a thing of the past as bean counters probably want to know how the research can be monetised in one way or another.

[DallasDad]

Focus more on apprenticeships and the world will be a better place

My thoughts entirely, Simon bolstered by the fact I did a four year indentured apprenticeship at what was then Marconi Elliot but today I sadly feel an Apprenticeship has become a bit of a substitute term for cheap labour

Have you looked at some of the roles offered by the national apprenticeship scheme lately?
The money is well just plain silly barely more than JSA so hardly an incentive.

At least when I did mine I was paid enough to fuel my moped, pay my keep and have a bit of a social life...
£15.10 to be precise - 75p per week for my tools


I am actually glad Son number 2 is off to Salford this autumn even though it will mean a degree (pun) of debt.

[scooterscot]

About 20+ years ago I'd have agreed with you. How can you know you're going to be passionate about a subject until you get there. I think many went to University on any course they could get on. Now I think you'd have to be more business like about not only the institution but the course itself - in some ways that's not necessarily a bad thing.

IMO higher education has been used as a way to massage unemployment statistics for far too long.

Isn't that what your guidance teacher is for? Tuning into your strengths/interests and focusing them in a particular direction? An expectation of any good school I should hope.

I never had a doubt my future would involve studying some form of electronics.

My bedroom at 13 years of age...

[BrilloPad]

No, bad, lazy, feckless students are bad for our children.

Worse thing that happened to FE was when Tony Blair said he wanted 50% of people to go to Uni, why! Not everyone needs a degree, and most of the crap degrees are next to useless (Media Studies etc) especially given now most jobs start as unpaid interns.

Focus more on apprenticeships and the world will be a better place

To be a Barista, do you need a degree or an apprenticeship?

[The_Equalizer]

Worse thing that happened to FE was when Tony Blair said he wanted 50% of people to go to Uni, why!

I never understood the rationale for that although I remember reading that 'it would produce a more highly skilled workforce' as if attending university magically makes the population more intelligent.

[ShandyDrinker]

imo frist and foremost you attend university to study a subject you're passionate about. 2nd you're qualification provides skills in demand. Not just the UK but the world over.

About 20+ years ago I'd have agreed with you. How can you know you're going to be passionate about a subject until you get there. I think many went to University on any course they could get on. Now I think you'd have to be more business like about not only the institution but the course itself - in some ways that's not necessarily a bad thing.

IMO higher education has been used as a way to massage unemployment statistics for far too long.

[SimonMac]

No, bad, lazy, feckless students are bad for our children.

Worse thing that happened to FE was when Tony Blair said he wanted 50% of people to go to Uni, why! Not everyone needs a degree, and most of the crap degrees are next to useless (Media Studies etc) especially given now most jobs start as unpaid interns.

Focus more on apprenticeships and the world will be a better place