Reply to: I see that complete knob Tom Watson has jumped aboard the latest bandwagon

[SueEllen]

The police don't apologise to anyone they investigate so why should they apologise to Proctor?

If they apologised then the person commits the crime they were first accused of but this time there are 3 witnesses so there is sufficient evidence for the CPS to take it to trial, they would look silly.

Also the defence would be able to use the apology in court to help establish reasonable doubt.

[sasguru]

You seem to have swallowed what you read and I think you are the one misunderstanding in your usual puffed up and abusive manner (seriously; have you been tested for aspergers and other personality disorders?)

I have indeed had a look at the Henriques report which shows no evidence of a cover up.
I'll try not to express my irritation which is caused by people bandying about unsubstantiated allegations and rumours contrary to the principle of innocent until PROVED guilty. It's not a hard concept, really.

Innocence is not based on absence of evidence rather there being proof beyond reasonable doubt.

Actually guilt is based on there being evidence beyond reasonable doubt.
In the absence of such evidence a person is considered innocent.
Unsubstantiated allegations by people who may or may not be mentally ill does not constitute such evidence.

To get to the stage of a charge being made the CPS make a determination of likely conviction based on the evidence compliled, the criteria is pretty high. If they decide not to proceed that does not equate to no evidence. The CPS is also known to make some odd decisions e.g not charging/putting Janner on trial, it is not beyond political influence.

Have a look at the Henriques report which goes into detail about why there has been no cover up. I certainly believe that more than the press.

If it doesnt go to trial the accused can say the police had no evidence at all and play the victim.

That's the way the legal system works. Evidence beyond reasonable doubt.

Is Proctor a paedophile? most likely given his past and circumstancial evidence, has he killed children? who knows, I bet the police have a good idea and they are not apologising that's an indication of what they think of him.

It's quite an allegation to make. And the police not apologising doesn't mean anything - it could be because the police as an institution are thick as mince, or because it would set a precedent or because they are covering their arses or any number of reasons.
To conclude on that basis that Proctor probably killed kids is illogical, to say the least.

PS Making this about political ideology is a little sad it's cross party scum. Janner Labour, Cyril Smith Liberal, Proctor Conservative. The others that must not be named are also cross party.

I agree that this is not a party issue - my point is Tom Watson makes it so. And it did become an anti_Tory witchhunt: some of the names bandied about e.g. Ted Heath and most likely Leon Brittan were just not credible.

Tom Watson's bungling would have capsized any case against Leon Brittan, says Matthew Scott - Telegraph

[ZARDOZ]

It's always astounds me how people will believe any old crock of tulipe they read in the sensationalist press.
And yes the legal system is based on the fact that absence of evidence of guilt=innocence.
Another concept many of the hard of understanding fail to get.

You seem to have swallowed what you read and I think you are the one misunderstanding in your usual puffed up and abusive manner (seriously; have you been tested for aspergers and other personality disorders?)

Innocence is not based on absence of evidence rather there being proof beyond reasonable doubt. To get to the stage of a charge being made the CPS make a determination of likely conviction based on the evidence compliled, the criteria is pretty high. If they decide not to proceed that does not equate to no evidence. The CPS is also known to make some odd decisions e.g not charging/putting Janner on trial, it is not beyond political influence. If it doesnt go to trial the accused can say the police had no evidence at all and play the victim.

Is Proctor a paedophile? most likely given his past and circumstancial evidence, has he killed children? who knows, I bet the police have a good idea and they are not apologising that's an indication of what they think of him.

PS Making this about political ideology is a little sad it's cross party scum. Janner Labour, Cyril Smith Liberal, Proctor Conservative. The others that must not be named are also cross party.

[unemployed]

I imagine a lot of teenage rent boys, then and now, are mixed up in drugs and crime.

ask sasguru

[darmstadt]

But of course, now that CUK has been infested with Corbynistas, ne-er-do-wells, socialists, the unemployed, people with mental issues - in general anyone but successful contractors - I suppose the point won't be understood.

Attacking somebody's credibility by citing the Daily Mail? OK…

Quite obvious why

[NickFitz]

There's plenty of other evidence about his political involvement in this. Google it if you're interested.
Although I wouldn't be surprised if you (and he) believed in some genuine satanic conspiracy just because all Tories must be evil. Such is the level of childish discourse, even among supposedly intelligent people, nowadays.

I don't recollect anybody suggesting Satanism was a component in all this, though I can't say I've looked into it that closely. I do know somebody who was in a children's home in Leicester and was abused by both Greville Janner and Frank Beck in the 1980s (I heard about it from him in the mid-1990s), so I know there were things going on that have been covered up until very recently.

[sasguru]

Attacking somebody's credibility by citing the Daily Mail? OK…

There's plenty of other evidence about his political involvement in this. Google it if you're interested.
Although I wouldn't be surprised if you (and he) believed in some genuine satanic conspiracy just because all Tories must be evil. Such is the level of childish discourse, even among supposedly intelligent people, nowadays.

[sasguru]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Did he regualrly attend Elm Guest house parties- Yes
Were children trafficed through Elm Guest house- Yes
Did children go missing or turn up dead where families (one a magistrate) are convinced this ring was involved? - Yes

No evidence he murdered children. Much of the evidence around these cases has been destroyed/overlooked/buried...see Janner and there are still people in parliament/positions of power who have links to it all.

Case of nothing to see here it is not.

It's always astounds me how people will believe any old crock of tulipe they read in the sensationalist press.
And yes the legal system is based on the fact that absence of evidence of guilt=innocence.
Another concept many of the hard of understanding fail to get.

[pjclarke]

Plus. This.

This is one of the oldest and most effective tricks in politics. Every hack in the business has used it in times of trouble, and it has even been elevated to the level of political mythology in a story about one of Lyndon Johnson’s early campaigns in Texas. The race was close and Johnson was getting worried. Finally he told his campaign manager to start a massive rumor campaign about his opponent’s life-long habit of enjoying carnal knowledge of his own barnyard sows.

“Christ, we can’t get a way calling him a pig****er,” the campaign manager protested.* “Nobody’s going to believe a thing like that.”

“I know,” Johnson replied.* “But let’s make the sonofabitch deny it.”

https://masscommons.wordpress.com/2012/03/15/fear-loathing-on-the-campaign-trail-make-them-deny-it/>

[pjclarke]

We're talking about a puny amount, 30K, before he became PM. And no one claims he broke the law.
If he was actively doing it after he became PM that would be a different matter.
Its obviously too good a stick for the Labourites to resist.

Quite. It is 'puny' to the global elite ™ and no doubt to many CUK regulars, but it is more than the average worker makes in a year, and it is the 'average worker' aka the electorate who is the intended audience for DC's critics.

The image they want to create is somebody profiting from tens of thousands salted away in an 'offshore trust', even if it was in reality no such thing and there were no tax benefits, the nuances between an offshore trust and 'an open-ended investment company which was incorporated in Panama and is resident in Ireland' will be lost on 99% of the populace.

It feeds into the 'privileged, out of touch, posh boy' narrative, one rule for them, another for us, favouring the wealthy at the expense of the vulnerable. ( © George Osbourne. )

And it seems to be working.

[OwlHoot]

Did children go missing or turn up dead where families (one a magistrate) are convinced this ring was involved? - Yes..

I imagine a lot of teenage rent boys, then and now, are mixed up in drugs and crime.

So if any "turn up dead" it may well be nothing more than an accidental overdose or a falling out with drug dealers or other villains.

Likewise, I'm sure some "go missing" all the time, having prudently hoofed it from some irate gangster or aggrieved punters they may have ripped off.

Just because kids turn up dead or go missing, it doesn't mean there is some nefarious satanic conspiracy behind it all.

[NickFitz]

As for the witness being credible:

'Grave doubts' over claims of key witnesses in VIP sex abuse inquiry | Daily Mail Online

Attacking somebody's credibility by citing the Daily Mail? OK…

[ZARDOZ]

Like I said, not a nice man.
But did he murder children in a sex orgy?
Almost certainly not.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Did he regualrly attend Elm Guest house parties- Yes
Were children trafficed through Elm Guest house- Yes
Did children go missing or turn up dead where families (one a magistrate) are convinced this ring was involved? - Yes

No evidence he murdered children. Much of the evidence around these cases has been destroyed/overlooked/buried...see Janner and there are still people in parliament/positions of power who have links to it all.

Case of nothing to see here it is not.

[sasguru]

A man of such great character too

'The Tory MP, rent boys and a sex dungeon in west Hull' – Memories of Harvey Proctor | Hull Daily Mail

Like I said, not a nice man.
But did he murder children in a sex orgy?
Almost certainly not.

[ZARDOZ]

You've heard of innocent until PROVED guilty?
There were probably a couple of paedos but saying Ted Heath (FFS!) and Proctor had parties where they murdered children was obviously a pile of complete bollux.

Proctor is a nasty human being but that doesn't mean he's a paedo.

As for the witness being credible:

'Grave doubts' over claims of key witnesses in VIP sex abuse inquiry | Daily Mail Online

A man of such great character too

'The Tory MP, rent boys and a sex dungeon in west Hull' – Memories of Harvey Proctor | Hull Daily Mail