Reply to: A bleak Christmas for low paid permies

[Pig]

BGG, current estimates put the figure upto 350k which if true means quadrupling your figures. But question is where is the money? Even allowing for acquisitions and expenses there is a lot missing.

MF, my point exactly but atw just wasn't listening

[DimPrawn]

Threaded worked there and ate all the (mince) pies.

HTH

[NoddY]

Nice business if you can get it.

Therefore the interesting question is why they went bust?

[cojak]

That post depressed me more than usual for some reason, Alf...

The futility of poverty, eh?

[Alf W]

I love the way these things are marketed as 'hampers' conjuring up all sorts of image of foie gras, truffles, exotic meats and champagne. I did some work with one of these hamper scheme companies once and the reality is they are delivered in a cardboard box and contain a canned turkey joint, a can of ham, some mince pies and then loads of cans of Stella / Kestrel Super, a couple of bottles of Lambrini and maybe a bottle of Cinzano.

The Marketing Director himself used to refer to them by names such as the 'Deluxe Wife-beater Special'.

Oh, and the contents are usually worth about 50-60% of the money you put in. The rest is Collector's commission.

Nice business if you can get it.

[MarillionFan]

Very funny!

If they had a credit card why would they be saving in a Christmas club?

tim

I thought exactly the same thing, but these things are wasted on AtW.

[AtW]

107,000??? Surely not!

[Board Game Geek]

Well, I did some maths and worked out that 107,000 (according to reports in the media) had lost out. Assuming they each put in £30 a month (and some put in a lot more, like £50-75), then

£30 x 12 x 107,000 = £38,520,000

Now, considering the Euro Millions lottery jackpot this weekend is up to 95 million Euros (approx £63 million quid), if I won the jackpot, then I would personally ensure that each of those 107,000 got a proper xmas dinner and some festive sparkle at this time of year. I'd still have £25 million to retire on, which is a ludicrous amount of money. It's a win-win all round.

[Dundeegeorge]

Your compassion speaks volumes

No personal interest just don't like seeing people lose their money, would be like my client not paying me, think I would be more than a little upset. But unlike their clients I can cover the loses just would not be happy about it.

Belief me I'm just as selfish but a good percentage of the population can not get loans / credit cards. Where as saving the money in the bank and be strong willed enough not to touch is a rarity. And savings stamps are redeemable anytime so again you need a strong will. I could probably manage it but that's coz I don't like spending money!!!

for your upbringing. If you really want to help people in this situation, then set up a bank account and run a thrift-club. If you raise enough money you could even make a small profit from interest as cash accumulates through the year.
However, Alexei is correct (you live long enough you see everything once at least), in that it's not up to you to save people from their circumstances, and you should not have a go at Alexei for pointing that out.

[Pig]

Cheers Pig, sounded like you had a more personal interest in this story. I am not from such an area but I know how the world works. When younger I had a much more selfish, tough sh1t, they are stupid attitude to stuff but the picture is far more complex than that.
Having said that, I do still tend towards the selfish. While wishing everyone well, my plan is always to earn enough to live somewhere half decent away from the sprawling masses. After a couple of tough years money-wise (not in comparison to most of the population mind) I guess I can see how precarious it can be and how you can get dragged into problems (e.g. divorce, job loss and the house of cards collapses on people living too close to the edge). Note: this isn't me I am coining it and look to be set till next may !

No personal interest just don't like seeing people lose their money, would be like my client not paying me, think I would be more than a little upset. But unlike their clients I can cover the loses just would not be happy about it.

Belief me I'm just as selfish but a good percentage of the population can not get loans / credit cards. Where as saving the money in the bank and be strong willed enough not to touch is a rarity. And savings stamps are redeemable anytime so again you need a strong will. I could probably manage it but that's coz I don't like spending money!!!

[lukemg]

Cheers Pig, sounded like you had a more personal interest in this story. I am not from such an area but I know how the world works. When younger I had a much more selfish, tough sh1t, they are stupid attitude to stuff but the picture is far more complex than that.
Having said that, I do still tend towards the selfish. While wishing everyone well, my plan is always to earn enough to live somewhere half decent away from the sprawling masses. After a couple of tough years money-wise (not in comparison to most of the population mind) I guess I can see how precarious it can be and how you can get dragged into problems (e.g. divorce, job loss and the house of cards collapses on people living too close to the edge). Note: this isn't me I am coining it and look to be set till next may !

[tim123]

Woah, easy there pig, it's a discussion. Now, you are correct in that the only thing AtW should bring to most discussions is silence but he does have a point. Of course these schemes are aimed at the poorest people, as the usual pay per week scams are (quality drama about this a few years back with that chap from 'the lakes' in). Such schemes would only appeal to them and the tragedy is they are the least able to recover from something like this happening. It's hard when you have cash coming in, to realise that the majority of the population live hand to mouth, scraping by each week and we are in a rich country. My view is that anyone who is here or comes here, goes out to work and makes some contribution to society without leaching off, thieving off or assaulting the rest of us is entitled to respect and if people like this have been turned over by this scheme I have every sympathy.

The problem with a scheme like this is that it is an anachronism, with fixed costs based upon a time when it was the only way of saving.

Now that there are better ways (as AtW points out), less people use it but the costs remain the same.

I doubt that the company did anything to deliberately lose this money, but they certainly should have looked at their income stream, realised that it was on an inevitable downward trend and if they couldn't do anything to diversify their sales channels, pack up voluntarily before they went bust.

tim

[Pig]

Woah, easy there pig, it's a discussion. Now, you are correct in that the only thing AtW should bring to most discussions is silence but he does have a point. Of course these schemes are aimed at the poorest people, as the usual pay per week scams are (quality drama about this a few years back with that chap from 'the lakes' in). Such schemes would only appeal to them and the tragedy is they are the least able to recover from something like this happening. It's hard when you have cash coming in, to realise that the majority of the population live hand to mouth, scraping by each week and we are in a rich country. My view is that anyone who is here or comes here, goes out to work and makes some contribution to society without leaching off, thieving off or assaulting the rest of us is entitled to respect and if people like this have been turned over by this scheme I have every sympathy.

Nicely put lukemg definitely better eloquence then I can muster. I am afraid I grew up in an area were this type off thing went on all the time (still do in fact). Very close to what I was trying to put across they are not quite a scam but not far off, a brilliant constructed con. But I cannot see how "savings stamps" will be of any benefit to them as they are redeemable at any time not just at a speciifed time and this is the point I was making.

Now I personnally do not have a problem with people who want to make a contribution to society but again they are the one's who have been shafted. The one's who don't / won't cotribute that's a different question & answer.

[AtW]

I have every sympathy.

There are plenty of people who offer sympathy - you are one of them. Someone has to say the tough but right words so that in the future there would be no need for such sympathy to be expressed in the first place because bad event would not take place at all.

Saving money is good. Saving money for some purchases is great attitude. Saving money every month, however little it is is fantastic and should be encouraged.

But people who save should not fall for scams with those clubs or what not - put money into bank account and learn to act responsibly and not touch them in the first place: buy savings stamps if you can't handle having cash around.

[lukemg]

Woah, easy there pig, it's a discussion. Now, you are correct in that the only thing AtW should bring to most discussions is silence but he does have a point. Of course these schemes are aimed at the poorest people, as the usual pay per week scams are (quality drama about this a few years back with that chap from 'the lakes' in). Such schemes would only appeal to them and the tragedy is they are the least able to recover from something like this happening. It's hard when you have cash coming in, to realise that the majority of the population live hand to mouth, scraping by each week and we are in a rich country. My view is that anyone who is here or comes here, goes out to work and makes some contribution to society without leaching off, thieving off or assaulting the rest of us is entitled to respect and if people like this have been turned over by this scheme I have every sympathy.