Reply to: Bruce Jenner

[SimonMac]

Bruce Jenner

So I can't compete in the 100m hovering contest?

Maybe if you picked up the Hoover once in a while you wouldn't have so many ex-wives

[minestrone]

Tessa you need to let it go....

Like the old joke goes...

Did you fart in my Whitbread? no I'm Tessa Sanderson.

[SueEllen]

I wonder if Fatima Whitbread is going to become a woman now as well.

Tessa you need to let it go....

[WordIsBond]

Actually I agree - there are arguments from both sides, and it is probably something that warrants more research.

Actually, I'm sorry to read that. This had the makings of a really good debate, possibly even a great internet war, and you just killed it. That's pathetic.

I sometimes worry that transgenderism is a form of delusional disorder and it should be treated rather than pandered to. I don't think even the experts have nearly enough knowledge to call it, but I worry we adopt a "your self-image is more important than reality" approach.

Yeah, me too. But on the other hand, since no one knows HOW to "treat" it, perhaps a little bit of "pandering" isn't too damaging. I don't have any problem, generally, with saying "she" if that makes the person feel better. Whether it should actually be recognised in law without any actual hard evidence is a little harder for me to buy into.

But it costs little to be polite even if you think it is all lunacy. Few people will make their life worse by typing "Ms Jenner" instead of "Mr Jenner."

[d000hg]

From your 'fix' to my quote, I take it you think it's a mental illness, not a physical one?

I'm undecided. I have no idea to what extent a male and female brain differ, if they do; it seems on the one hand plausible you could have a condition where you literally have a 'male brain' in a female body or vice versa considering the other weird things that can happen.

On the other, there are people who are convinced they're the reincarnation of Julius Ceasar, or are aliens. I sometimes worry that transgenderism is a form of delusional disorder and it should be treated rather than pandered to. I don't think even the experts have nearly enough knowledge to call it, but I worry we adopt a "your self-image is more important than reality" approach.

[MicrosoftBob]

I wonder if Fatima Whitbread is going to become a woman now as well.

Or Dawn Primarolo, it's hard to tell if they've made a bad attempt at passing or are just plain fugly

[mudskipper]

Actually I agree - there are arguments from both sides, and it is probably something that warrants more research.

[WordIsBond]

From your 'fix' to my quote, I take it you think it's a mental illness, not a physical one?

This wasn't addressed to me, but is one permitted to be agnostic on the question? Or must one just take it by faith that the truth has been handed down to us from the high priests / priestesses of Stonewall, etc? Can we be allowed to shrug, and say, "Who knows?" or must we stand to attention and say, "I KNOW!" And why is it so vital to Mr/Ms Jenner (and her fans) that everyone say and think "the right thing" about this, anyway?

And while I'm on a roll, is one permitted to question whether "illness" is even an appropriate designation for what we are discussing?

I'm assuming from your question you think it is a "physical illness." Is there any physical evidence for that? Usually "physical illnesses" have some kind of physical evidence of their presence. Here we have a person who is biologically / genetically a man but says that emotionally / mentally she is a woman. Admittedly, I'm not an expert, but I don't know of any way to devise a test to distinguish between allegations of mental confusion and claims of being "a woman trapped in the wrong body." How can anyone really prove that she isn't instead "a man trapped in the wrong mindset"? By what she says and thinks? But won't a "wrong mindset" skew the evidence? How can you really prove this either way without some kind of physical evidence?

I don't see how anyone could really prove it is either a physical or mental issue. It's a real issue, obviously, but trying to definitively categorise it seems to me hopeless.

If Jenner wants to dress like a woman and claim to be one, and have an operation, and do whatever, I don't really see how it is anyone's business to try and stop her. But it really isn't her (or anyone else's) business to try to tell everybody they must approve of it and go along. If there were good, hard evidence that this "trapped in the wrong body" problem is not mere delusion and actually exists and good, hard evidence that she personally has the condition, that might be different. Even so, people have the right to ignore evidence on a lot of things. But without that evidence, it is perfectly acceptable for people to say, "I don't know whether I believe that or not," and perfectly acceptable for people to say, "Actually, I don't believe that." Or even to say, "I don't know, but I'll treat it with respect if I'm convinced you actually believe it yourself."

[alluvial]

Where in your own definition does it mention "a morbid fear"? You don't seem to be sticking to your own definition... the original comment could however be read as implying "a strong dislike".

Look up what morbid fear means.

[GlenW]

I wonder if Fatima Whitbread is going to become a woman now as well.

Modern medicine is good, but it's not that good.

[mudskipper]

From your 'fix' to my quote, I take it you think it's a mental illness, not a physical one?

[minestrone]

I wonder if Fatima Whitbread is going to become a woman now as well.

[d000hg]

She thought she was a woman trapped in a man's body.

I think the whole area is fascinating but for me the debate is far from settled either way.

Athletics is about physicality

At top levels of all sports, competitors always say that the mental element is hugely significant. There's debate if the male and female psyche are equivalent so it could be this gives an advantage. If for instance you buy that the male psyche is more competitive, then is it fair for a "man in a woman's body" to compete against women?

[mudskipper]

All the Bitching and arguing aside, if a male has the op and fully converts. How would that be noted on nhs systems so that they are not sent smear appointments ect? Anyone have any nhs domain knowledge as surely that is a case that the creaking nhs systems would struggle with.

There are plenty of people who don't need smear appointments - for example those who have had their cervix removed after treatment for cancer - I'm sure the system can cope.

[TheLordDave]

All the Bitching and arguing aside, if a male has the op and fully converts. How would that be noted on nhs systems so that they are not sent smear appointments ect? Anyone have any nhs domain knowledge as surely that is a case that the creaking nhs systems would struggle with.