Reply to: Gordon Brown's legacy

[SueEllen]

It's another expression of the fundamental problem in our Democracy - it's too big. I don't mean too big as in 'government is too big' I mean too big as in 'too many people are governed by it'.

There is no way for us as voters to understand enough of what's going on to make rational voting decisions, because the systems of government are so large and complex that understanding them at even an abstract level requires specialist knowledge. The systems themselves cannot be simplified too much, because their complexity is an unavoidable result of governing 80 million people.

We vote for people to represent us so we don't have to - that's the entire point of democracy.

Unfortunately using different voting systems for different elections in the UK makes it a bloody mess as people don't know how their vote makes an impact. Though if your parliamentary constituency is a marginal seat than your vote counts, likewise if local MP/councillors are fraudsters or paedophiles than your vote to get them out counts.

Most people also don't understand the powers that the elected official will have. Though with the police commissioners approximately 85% of people eligible to vote guessed right.

[Doggy Styles]

At least Gordon Brown kept the UK out of the Euro.

Whatever his reasons, to my mind that trumps all his other supposed follies.

Only because he knew it wouldn't get past the referendum.

That's why he had his made-up tests, to give HMG an excuse not to hold it until the public swung in favour. Which it never did.

[DodgyAgent]

It's another expression of the fundamental problem in our Democracy - it's too big. I don't mean too big as in 'government is too big' I mean too big as in 'too many people are governed by it'.

There is no way for us as voters to understand enough of what's going on to make rational voting decisions, because the systems of government are so large and complex that understanding them at even an abstract level requires specialist knowledge. The systems themselves cannot be simplified too much, because their complexity is an unavoidable result of governing 80 million people.

This leads to people either disengaging from politics, voting non-rationally based on the words of demagogues (Lib/Lab/Con politicians) or voting for those that try to distil complex problems down into fatally flawed simple solutions that sound-bite well (UKIP politicans).

We are not really a democracy any more. We are an Ochlocracy. The generalisation of political positions into something as simple as 'Right and Left' and policies into 'Capitalistic' or 'Socialist' is just another symptom of the lack of reason inherent in an Ochlocracy.

Very well said. Having said that just imagine what it would be like if we were consumed into a federal state of Europe. I am not sure devolving power to local councils is a good thing either. Most people are detached from any sort of localism thanks to getting used to centrally controlled government.

Anarchy it is then

[NickyBoy]

There is no way we should allow people like Gates and Buffet to have such power. The system works fine just as long as we voters understand what is really going on and not be fooled by the siren call of a politician claiming he is driven by a desire for "social justice".

It's another expression of the fundamental problem in our Democracy - it's too big. I don't mean too big as in 'government is too big' I mean too big as in 'too many people are governed by it'.

There is no way for us as voters to understand enough of what's going on to make rational voting decisions, because the systems of government are so large and complex that understanding them at even an abstract level requires specialist knowledge. The systems themselves cannot be simplified too much, because their complexity is an unavoidable result of governing 80 million people.

This leads to people either disengaging from politics, voting non-rationally based on the words of demagogues (Lib/Lab/Con politicians) or voting for those that try to distil complex problems down into fatally flawed simple solutions that sound-bite well (UKIP politicans).

We are not really a democracy any more. We are an Ochlocracy. The generalisation of political positions into something as simple as 'Right and Left' and policies into 'Capitalistic' or 'Socialist' is just another symptom of the lack of reason inherent in an Ochlocracy.

[Zero Liability]

There is no way we should allow people like Gates and Buffet to have such power. The system works fine just as long as we voters understand what is really going on and not be fooled by the siren call of a politician claiming he is driven by a desire for "social justice".

And just reinterpret any 'we need to...' proclamations with 'we will make you pay for...'

As for Gates and Buffett, at least they only involve their own money in their schemes, to the extent that they aren't advocating government to pour money into some policy of their liking.

[SueEllen]

At least Gordon Brown kept the UK out of the Euro.

Whatever his reasons, to my mind that trumps all his other supposed follies.

That's cos we didn't meet the fiscal (made up) tests.

At least his history degree was useful for something...

[OwlHoot]

At least Gordon Brown kept the UK out of the Euro.

Whatever his reasons, to my mind that trumps all his other supposed follies.

[DodgyAgent]

Until Gates and Buffet get into power, or we multiply MP salaries 10000X that's the only way any government CAN work.

There is no way we should allow people like Gates and Buffet to have such power. The system works fine just as long as we voters understand what is really going on and not be fooled by the siren call of a politician claiming he is driven by a desire for "social justice".

[d000hg]

It doesn't alter the fact that whatever the provenance of his beliefs he's more than happy to stick others with the costs

Until Gates and Buffet get into power, or we multiply MP salaries 10000X that's the only way any government CAN work.

[DodgyAgent]

I think that's rather DA's point. Labour tends to cloak it with their social justice rhetoric.

Exactly

[Zero Liability]

I think that's rather DA's point. Labour tends to cloak it with their social justice rhetoric.

[SueEllen]

Especially since it involves forcing others into footing the bill. That said, irrespective of how many politicians genuinely believe what they espouse, I've little doubt Brown is a narcissist, and a very incompetent one at that. Some say sociopath - maybe. It doesn't alter the fact that whatever the provenance of his beliefs he's more than happy to stick others with the costs. And I have no doubt many 'leftist' politicians are little more than elitist technocrats, under the delusion that they and their bureaucrats know how everyone else ought to live, facilitated by their class warfare ideology and willingness to indulge the egos of supposed underclasses. Snake oil, plain and simple.

Sounds like all politicians regardless of whether they are left-wing, right-wing or centre.

[Zero Liability]

I am not arguing it from any sort of position other than from what I see in contemporary and past human behaviour. Very few human beings behave or think according to logic. Belief has little to do with practicality and logic. I am quite sure others believe that socialism is the way to make society work and they will argue their case convincingly I am sure.

Especially since it involves forcing others into footing the bill. That said, irrespective of how many politicians genuinely believe what they espouse, I've little doubt Brown is a narcissist, and a very incompetent one at that. Some say sociopath - maybe. It doesn't alter the fact that whatever the provenance of his beliefs he's more than happy to stick others with the costs. And I have no doubt many 'leftist' politicians are little more than elitist technocrats, under the delusion that they and their bureaucrats know how everyone else ought to live, facilitated by their class warfare ideology and willingness to indulge the egos of supposed underclasses. Snake oil, plain and simple.

[d000hg]

Yes, and it will all seem rosy right up until the point that they attempt to put it into practice..............at which point all the wheels generally fall off as human nature takes over.

Things would work much better without all these pesky people involved.

[original PM]

But isn't the pinnacle of anyone's career in politics to become PM

And then once you have done that you should have to just fe<k off