Reply to: Stay as a PAYE Employee, or start Contracting?

[reece240692]

The more I read this thread the more I think the OP is working for a really shady outfit.

The only claw back clause I have ever seen in a contract of employment is based around not returning physical things (like uniforms etc)

I have seen people ask for and be sent on training course with a caveat that if they left within x months/years they have to pay something back but not as part of an initial contract of employment.

My actual advice to you is to take the contracting role and expect to be out of work in 4 weeks but you will also not be working for a bunch of cowboys.

Harsh maybe but I cannot see your employers ever being on the right side of shady.

Indeed, but say I were to stay on the books what are the chances of anything changing?

[tractor]

...

Slightly different question, I'm permy now always been permy at my employer I never did contract to perm in fact I actively avoided it due to the IR35 implications. HOWEVER where I am working now as a permy I have seen a 4-5 people who were contractors here for 3-4 years switch to perm here, they do the same role, sit at the same desk, no change just job title, even as contractors I would of seen then as 'part and parcel of the teams' infact they were keyman dependencies, would that mean they are for sure an IR35 fail ? Yes I am turning into a bitter permie

You are either explaining it very, very badly or you have completely found the wrong end of the stick.

[SueEllen]

Slightly different question, I'm permy now always been permy at my employer I never did contract to perm in fact I actively avoided it due to the IR35 implications. HOWEVER where I am working now as a permy I have seen a 4-5 people who were contractors here for 3-4 years switch to perm here, they do the same role, sit at the same desk, no change just job title, even as contractors I would of seen then as 'part and parcel of the teams' infact they were keyman dependencies, would that mean they are for sure an IR35 fail ? Yes I am turning into a bitter permie

Very likely but it's up to HMRC to find them.

I do know some people who have gone contact to perm but the role they are in now has a different title from the role they had when they were a contractor. So even if it looks to all around them they are doing the same job on paper they aren't.

[ELBBUBKUNPS]

Slightly different question, I'm permy now always been permy at my employer I never did contract to perm in fact I actively avoided it due to the IR35 implications. HOWEVER where I am working now as a permy I have seen a 4-5 people who were contractors here for 3-4 years switch to perm here, they do the same role, sit at the same desk, no change just job title, even as contractors I would of seen then as 'part and parcel of the teams' infact they were keyman dependencies, would that mean they are for sure an IR35 fail ? Yes I am turning into a bitter permie

[vetran]

if you are worried about being paid weekly, how do you feel about getting paid in 90 days?

from what you say your employer is decidedly dodgy, slow payment is almost sure.

from what I see its probably not a good idea, get some experience & certs and then go contracting.

[Scrag Meister]

'A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest'

You're not listening.

Your employer sees a way of saving employers NI, pension contributions and sick pay, parental leave, holiday pay, redundancy pay, etc. by letting you pay it.

It's a trap, stay perm.

FTFY

[original PM]

The more I read this thread the more I think the OP is working for a really shady outfit.

The only claw back clause I have ever seen in a contract of employment is based around not returning physical things (like uniforms etc)

I have seen people ask for and be sent on training course with a caveat that if they left within x months/years they have to pay something back but not as part of an initial contract of employment.

My actual advice to you is to take the contracting role and expect to be out of work in 4 weeks but you will also not be working for a bunch of cowboys.

Harsh maybe but I cannot see your employers ever being on the right side of shady.

[SueEllen]

I realise that, I'd call them back when it's convenient, also they have paid for it, but in the event of termination they'd take 100 to cover expenses apparently

In your next permanent job do not sign a contract with a clause in like that unless it explicitly lists what the money is to cover as the word "expenses" is sufficiently vague. The DBS and Disclosure Scotland checks do not cost £100. Even if they add their admin costs on to it, it doesn't come up to £100.

You can also negotiate a permanent contract, and get them to alter and remove clauses. Though you need to have a very good reason for getting clauses removed and altered i.e. for example if you do work for an opensource project and they want the IP you can get them to exclude that particular type of work.

[mudskipper]

Have you asked your employer why they've suggested this?

Reduced costs for them = more costs for you. Under IR35 (which you certainly would be) someone still has to pay the employer's NI, cover sick pay, pension pay, holiday pay. Wonder who that someone is?

Self employed may be an option. It's not something most contractors can do as agencies and end clients don't like it because some of the liability can pass on to them.

If you go with self employed, there will be a net NI saving (between what you and your employer are currently paying) but you're very unlikely to be able to find other contracts as a sole trader.

What is it you do? If you're 22 years old, as your moniker suggests, your priorities should be training, mentoring, career advancement. Contracting isn't conducive to that.

[reece240692]

I realise that, I'd call them back when it's convenient, also they have paid for it, but in the event of termination they'd take 100 to cover expenses apparently

[SueEllen]

it's apparently to cover CRB checks.

@*&* I've never had to pay for DBS checks. If a company wants to do them they are welcome to pay for them.

And to be perfectly honest, if I can take cigarette breaks then I can take a call during said break

Agents don't call like that.

[reece240692]

The £100 is to cover the "training" they have given you.

They have clearly lost a few people in the probation stage to add both these things into your contract.



You are free to look for jobs if you want as long as you are happy to pay the £100. However accepting calls during working hours may be a problem.....

it's apparently to cover CRB checks.

And to be perfectly honest, if I can take cigarette breaks then I can take a call during said break

[SueEllen]

<snip>

I see your point about getting rid of me at the end of my probation,which is 6 months long anyway, that really raised my eyebrow along with clauses like not being able to take holiday within the first 3 months of employment and if I leave within my probation they take £100 out of my final paycheck.

The £100 is to cover the "training" they have given you.

They have clearly lost a few people in the probation stage to add both these things into your contract.

I don't know if they intend to do that or not, however the circumstances are -like you say- a bit suspicious so I'd rather stay on the books for now (and subsequently, the right side of IR35!), update my CV and perhaps contact a couple of Agents to get the ball rolling, if I put my CV on job boards and they see I'm on the lookout then it's not going to do me any favours.

You are free to look for jobs if you want as long as you are happy to pay the £100. However accepting calls during working hours may be a problem.....

[SueEllen]

The right side being obviously outside.

The right side is one where HMRC accept how you are operating without any hassle when they do an investigation. So SpontaneousOrder is correct.

[reece240692]

You wouldn't be on the 'wrong' side of IR35 if you went contracting. You'd just have to declare yourself inside, and pay everything PAYE.

The right side being obviously outside.