Reply to: Merged threads discussing Israel

[NotAllThere]

The main land of Israel has 20% Arabs as Israeli citizens. Their population is growing at 2.2%. The Jews have a growth rate of 1.7%. There ethnic cleansing on their own lands isn't very effective. Or do you think that the idea is to set up the West Bank and the Gaza Strip as "Jew Only" areas?

[NorthWestPerm2Contr]

There never was a prospect. IMHO Israel would have taken the West Bank and then some anyway, regardless if Arab countries attacked them or not. Many PM have come out and stated that there are no prospects for one, and that the "home of the people who call themselves Palestinians, is Jordan. Because there was never any state called Palestine".

Its just a question why the state of limbo. Annexation or yet another generation under siege.

One of the main issues is the idea of the holy land. Holy to all three major religions. I guess this will all end when Israelis policy of ethnic cleansing and destroying livelihoods is complete. With the expansions of settlements taking place in the West bank, I guess it will eventually happen.

[lilelvis2000]

Anybody who can't see that Israel are trying to gradually destroy the prospect of a Palestinians state, is quite simply put, thick as pig tulip. The wall and settlements eat into more land. Gaza acts as a prison camp and contains the rest in as little space as possible. There is no prospect of a Palestinian state while Israel has these policies.

There never was a prospect. IMHO Israel would have taken the West Bank and then some anyway, regardless if Arab countries attacked them or not. Many PM have come out and stated that there are no prospects for one, and that the "home of the people who call themselves Palestinians, is Jordan. Because there was never any state called Palestine".

Its just a question why the state of limbo. Annexation or yet another generation under siege.

[NotAllThere]

At what point did they stop levelling gaza and murdering Palestinians?

2005.

A year or so later Hamas gained some electoral power. There then followed a civil war (in Gaza) between Fatah and Hamas, which ended with Hamas in control. This was then followed by sanctions endorsed by the UN, and blockade of Gaza by Egypt and Israel. The blockade is widely regarded to be illegal under international law.

[NorthWestPerm2Contr]

What concessions? That agreement would have created bantustans. Pretty much where things are headed now anyway.
Arafat was correct to have rejected it.

Anybody who can't see that Israel are trying to gradually destroy the prospect of a Palestinians state, is quite simply put, thick as pig tulip. The wall and settlements eat into more land. Gaza acts as a prison camp and contains the rest in as little space as possible. There is no prospect of a Palestinian state while Israel has these policies.

[lilelvis2000]

The reason why there has been no solution to the problem is Yasser Arafat. For an entire generation he was the only leader they ever knew. But he had many opportunities to strike a deal which would have bought an end to this saga. He would attend every peace summit and at that last minute get cold feet and duck out. His greatest fear was leaving behind a legacy that he failed his people.

I think the best chance was when Bill Clinton organised a summit in Camp David and he chickened out on a deal, that was the time when Israel was probably at its nicest by agreeing to a lot of concessions.

He was the only guy who could have agreed to a deal and his people would have gone along with that. But now that he is gone, the influence is gone and its highly unlikely a peace deal can ever happen.

What concessions? That agreement would have created bantustans. Pretty much where things are headed now anyway.
Arafat was correct to have rejected it.

[NorthWestPerm2Contr]

You mean that hasn't been the plan all along?

At what point did they stop levelling gaza and murdering Palestinians?

[NorthWestPerm2Contr]

The reason why there has been no solution to the problem is Yasser Arafat. For an entire generation he was the only leader they ever knew. But he had many opportunities to strike a deal which would have bought an end to this saga. He would attend every peace summit and at that last minute get cold feet and duck out. His greatest fear was leaving behind a legacy that he failed his people.

I think the best chance was when Bill Clinton organised a summit in Camp David and he chickened out on a deal, that was the time when Israel was probably at its nicest by agreeing to a lot of concessions.

He was the only guy who could have agreed to a deal and his people would have gone along with that. But now that he is gone, the influence is gone and its highly unlikely a peace deal can ever happen.

Your are delusional if you think there was any prospect of Israel giving any "concessions" aka justice. Clinton and every other president felt like they were banging their heads against a wall with the Israelis, they just couldn't say it. The recent slip by John Kerry does go someway towards proving that. What Americans think and say about the Israelis are 2 completely different things.

[lilelvis2000]

Palestinians face new wave of bloodshed as ceasefire breaks down after British-Israeli soldier is 'kidnapped by Hamas'
'If we don't get our soldier back we should start levelling Gaza':
Home | Mail Online

You mean that hasn't been the plan all along?

[CloudWalker]

Palestinians face new wave of bloodshed as ceasefire breaks down after British-Israeli soldier is 'kidnapped by Hamas'
'If we don't get our soldier back we should start levelling Gaza':
Home | Mail Online

[tinopener]

I spent a year overall in Israel on Kibbutzim and a moshav and building and farming. During my hellraising days.

Honestly? The Israelis and Palestinians are the biggest tossers on earth. Politically, morally and personally.

They deserve each other. This is simply god and mother nature controlling the overall population of our sexy little planet.

[CloudWalker]

that didn't last long

Israel-Gaza ceasefire ends as Israeli tanks open fire and kill 4 Palestinians | Mail Online

[fullyautomatix]

The reason why there has been no solution to the problem is Yasser Arafat. For an entire generation he was the only leader they ever knew. But he had many opportunities to strike a deal which would have bought an end to this saga. He would attend every peace summit and at that last minute get cold feet and duck out. His greatest fear was leaving behind a legacy that he failed his people.

I think the best chance was when Bill Clinton organised a summit in Camp David and he chickened out on a deal, that was the time when Israel was probably at its nicest by agreeing to a lot of concessions.

He was the only guy who could have agreed to a deal and his people would have gone along with that. But now that he is gone, the influence is gone and its highly unlikely a peace deal can ever happen.

[minestrone]

I think Israel now realise the whole thing has been a bit of a pointless fook up.

[NotAllThere]

It's good to see the Zionist scum revealing themselves and standing up for terrorists. Just because they are Arab children and babies being killed they think it is ok.

You really can't stand anyone who suggests even slightly that your perception of the current situation might be at variance with reality.

Hamas is in internationally recognised terrorist organisation. You are standing up for people who until they found rockets were less offensive to their western supporters, were fans of sending young people into crowded areas to blow themselves and anyone standing nearby to pieces. You seem to think that because the people Hamas are targeting are Jewish children and babies (and men and women), that's ok.

You are blinded to your own hypocrisy by your hatred. You don't care one jot about any children or babies. You are entirely motivated by your hatred of Israel.

Your solutions vary from not unreasonable to la-la-land.

1) address the Palestinians the right to return
Complicated, but not unreasonable

2) stop building settlement and kicking Palestinians out of their homes thereafter destroying them
Absolutely

3) accept palestines right to exist
Palestine does exist, and I don't think even Israel is questioning its right to exist. Given their military capability, if Israel wanted Palestine to not exist, it could be over in a few hours.

4) stop blockading gaza and allow Palestinians a dignified life instead of producing more militants through their terrorist policies
You'd need to get Egypt's agreement, but if Hamas could be trusted to not use the opportunity afforded by open borders to further prepare for terrorism, then it would be very beneficial for the residents.

5) actually give the Palestinians some hope through a real peace process and not a fake one meant to preserve the status quo
Were you born after Oslo? Didn't that give some real hope?

6) stop killing babies and children
We'd all like that. Perhaps they could work out a targetting system that only takes out adults?

7) stop this constant propaganda which claims that Israel are the oppressed and the Palestinians the oppressors
Maybe you should stop watching Fox News if you think that's the constant propaganda. I suggest something with a rather less biased viewpoint, like Al Jazeera.

8) start treating Palestinians as human beings
That's be good. Perhaps the surrounding nations could help by not treating Palestinians so badly in their own countries?

9) if the 2 state solution is not acceptable then make 1 state where all are equal citizens
That would require Israel to occupy the land again. Or Hamas' dream becoming a reality.

10) work with the US and UK rather than use them as puppets
So, the US and the UK are puppets of Israel? Are you proposing that the world is actually run by a global conspiracy of Jews?

I count myself as a supporter of the state of Israel, of its resettlement in its historic setting. But I have been distressed not only at the news of what is happening in Gaza, but also at the unwillingness of reporters and commentators to bring into the discussion the history of Israel’s re-establishment. I never thought that even the relative precariousness of Israel’s position in the Middle East justified the degree to which the Israeli state has been manifestly unfaithful to what I regard as its own Torah teaching on righteousness and justice, as reinforced by the prophets.

The fact that so few voices of eminent Israelites and Jews have been willing to admit the illegality and injustice of Israel’s West Bank settlement policy, pursued so relentlessly since 1967, I have found deeply disturbing. I acknowledge the legitimacy of Israel’s concerns in building the security barrier, but am distressed that no Elijah-like protest is to be heard or given publicity against the land-grab of the positioning of the barrier or at the abuse of traditional rights of Arab landowners and olive groves.

Nor can I defend the Hamas policy of firing rockets into Israel, but neither can I defend Israel’s policy of treating Gaza as little more than an extended prison camp. We must surely set the current catastrophe within its historical context. Since Israel owes the legitimacy of its status in the Middle East to a UN resolution, would it not be an obvious step forward for a properly representative UN panel to review the rights and wrongs of Israel’s expansion since 1948 and 1967, including the impact on the previous inhabitants of the region, and to recommend how Israel and Palestine might co-exist both peacefully and to the mutual benefit of each other in the future.
Professor James DG Dunn
Chichester, West Sussex

Pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter.