Reply to: Opinions on an Agency, please...

[CoolCat]

Write to your MP.

Write to UKIP, and the other parties.

Write to the press.

Ring the radio phone in shows

etc

[SussexSeagull]

Yes it is mainly down to Blair, Brown and co that UK jobs were exported in great numbers (without ever leaving our shores) with a consequential erosion of UK tax take. This is one of a number of deep bear traps they constructed for successive governments.

Which the coalition has now had four years to reverse.

If the UK was making money back on exports to India I would see it as a fair trade, but doing business in India seems to be extremely hard for foreign companies.

[Taita]

For one thing the Indian outsourcers are racist. Spend some time studying which caste gets promoted most quickly and you will quickly see a trend unrelated to merit. Not to mention their attitude to white Westerners.
For another they routinely harass and bully their staff in sometimes quite terrible ways, some folk I know worked 7 days weeks, often long into the night, under terrible stress while being held over a barrel to do it.
For another they routinely break immigration law, employment law, data protection act, intellectual property protection laws, and they lie cheat overpromise and so on
Then another they steal British intellectual property on an industrial scale, much of which was hard won and some funded out of the British public purse via universities and so on.
They are big tax avoiders normally paying their corporate tax in havens rather than here. Their staff get massive tax perks, first 12 months here free of both employers and employees national insurance, large number of payments allowed as expenses (and tax free) that Brits working away from home within the UK could not claim.
Large numbers bring in families, spouse gets right to work here and displaces another Brit from the workforce, all get free healthcare regardless of many timing their visit precisely because a family member needs an expensive operation, and their children are given free schooling which clogs up the schools in many areas.
Compare and contrast to the difficulty Brits have getting a work visa to India, the fact we have to fund our families healthcare and schooling if we do go, and so on. It’s nowhere near reciprocal.
Then of course we have vast numbers being paid below market rates, as they only need to be paid bottom quartile for the country (averaged over the whole country) which is well below market rates in the South East.
We have them partnered in pairs swapping alternately between here and India every 12 months, so that they are always entitled to work free of national insurance, and between the pair permanently depriving a Brit of a job.
Far too many of them go onto gain indefinite leave to remain in this country simply for working here a while.
They will ruthlessly cheat and lie and stamp all over your reputation.
It’s no better than working for a slave ship owner.

Yes it is mainly down to Blair, Brown and co that UK jobs were exported in great numbers (without ever leaving our shores) with a consequential erosion of UK tax take. This is one of a number of deep bear traps they constructed for successive governments.

[CoolCat]

which bit is from the "UKIP/BNP manifesto" then?

I have seen countless good Westerners shafted by the Indian outsourcers, I think you are naïve in the extreme to think its worth the risk.

[lukemg]

WTAS except the chap who has been reading the UKIP/BNP manifesto.
Seen Bob Shops pressured into getting a resource at short notice on site and reluctantly hiring local. They could not get rid of these people quick enough when the work had finished but that wouldn't stop me working through them, I would focus on the role, location and rate.
Once in, I would be working the client to develop good relationships and distance myself from the bob shop with the aim of coming back in the future.

[MojoDog]

For one thing the Indian outsourcers are racist. Spend some time studying which caste gets promoted most quickly and you will quickly see a trend unrelated to merit. Not to mention their attitude to white Westerners.
For another they routinely harass and bully their staff in sometimes quite terrible ways, some folk I know worked 7 days weeks, often long into the night, under terrible stress while being held over a barrel to do it.
For another they routinely break immigration law, employment law, data protection act, intellectual property protection laws, and they lie cheat overpromise and so on
Then another they steal British intellectual property on an industrial scale, much of which was hard won and some funded out of the British public purse via universities and so on.
They are big tax avoiders normally paying their corporate tax in havens rather than here. Their staff get massive tax perks, first 12 months here free of both employers and employees national insurance, large number of payments allowed as expenses (and tax free) that Brits working away from home within the UK could not claim.
Large numbers bring in families, spouse gets right to work here and displaces another Brit from the workforce, all get free healthcare regardless of many timing their visit precisely because a family member needs an expensive operation, and their children are given free schooling which clogs up the schools in many areas.
Compare and contrast to the difficulty Brits have getting a work visa to India, the fact we have to fund our families healthcare and schooling if we do go, and so on. It’s nowhere near reciprocal.
Then of course we have vast numbers being paid below market rates, as they only need to be paid bottom quartile for the country (averaged over the whole country) which is well below market rates in the South East.
We have them partnered in pairs swapping alternately between here and India every 12 months, so that they are always entitled to work free of national insurance, and between the pair permanently depriving a Brit of a job.
Far too many of them go onto gain indefinite leave to remain in this country simply for working here a while.
They will ruthlessly cheat and lie and stamp all over your reputation.
It’s no better than working for a slave ship owner.

Apart from that, what's your overall opinion of them...?

Whoever gets this gig (might be me, might not), they'll be working at the client's site, not the agency. So none of the above will apply.
Thanks for all replies.

[CoolCat]

For one thing the Indian outsourcers are racist. Spend some time studying which caste gets promoted most quickly and you will quickly see a trend unrelated to merit. Not to mention their attitude to white Westerners.
For another they routinely harass and bully their staff in sometimes quite terrible ways, some folk I know worked 7 days weeks, often long into the night, under terrible stress while being held over a barrel to do it.
For another they routinely break immigration law, employment law, data protection act, intellectual property protection laws, and they lie cheat overpromise and so on
Then another they steal British intellectual property on an industrial scale, much of which was hard won and some funded out of the British public purse via universities and so on.
They are big tax avoiders normally paying their corporate tax in havens rather than here. Their staff get massive tax perks, first 12 months here free of both employers and employees national insurance, large number of payments allowed as expenses (and tax free) that Brits working away from home within the UK could not claim.
Large numbers bring in families, spouse gets right to work here and displaces another Brit from the workforce, all get free healthcare regardless of many timing their visit precisely because a family member needs an expensive operation, and their children are given free schooling which clogs up the schools in many areas.
Compare and contrast to the difficulty Brits have getting a work visa to India, the fact we have to fund our families healthcare and schooling if we do go, and so on. It’s nowhere near reciprocal.
Then of course we have vast numbers being paid below market rates, as they only need to be paid bottom quartile for the country (averaged over the whole country) which is well below market rates in the South East.
We have them partnered in pairs swapping alternately between here and India every 12 months, so that they are always entitled to work free of national insurance, and between the pair permanently depriving a Brit of a job.
Far too many of them go onto gain indefinite leave to remain in this country simply for working here a while.
They will ruthlessly cheat and lie and stamp all over your reputation.
It’s no better than working for a slave ship owner.

[psychocandy]

Extremely naive about what motivates people in the UK. Very determined to get on and become a "manager". They really don't understand how anyone over the age of 30 would want to do anything technical.

Yeh. The guys I met couldnt get their head around the idea that someone could disagree with their employer and say no to something.

They're attitude was do exactly what your told - your employer is king. And then you can get on and get promotion.

[psychocandy]

Don't be fooled. These are dream gigs for these guys and they would do anything for the work as you can see. They are queueing up for work like this and it is the aspiration of most Indian IT workers. Don't be fooled in to thinking they are under duress or being poorly treated.

Yeh the guys themselves seemed fine about it. They're attitude was that they've been asked to go to uk, its an opportunity they've got to do, so family can take a back seat. And they were fine about it.

Couple of nice guys I met. Company stuck them in a flat 20 miles from office, no car and told them to get public transport. Felt a bit sorry for them. But they didnt moan at all and just thought that was par for the course.

[northernladuk]

One thing that I remember though. These guys used to come to UK for months on end. They were told by employer that they had to do this - no choice at all. One guy even missed the birth of one of his kids. Seemed to me a bit crap.

Don't be fooled. These are dream gigs for these guys and they would do anything for the work as you can see. They are queueing up for work like this and it is the aspiration of most Indian IT workers. Don't be fooled in to thinking they are under duress or being poorly treated.

[psychocandy]

One other thing. I found that when you came across a bad one they were bad.

Traits included never taking responsibility for anything, trying to blame someone else - some of them had a real problems where they went out of their way to make sure they were ok. Very backstabbing.

Also, some never admitted they didnt know. You got vague answers out of them.

Also, laziness. Some of them were a nightmare. Disappeared during important times. But of course always had some excuse to cover themselves.

Must admit I found it to be a very dog-eat-dog, backstabbing environment with most of them willing to do anything to get on.

[psychocandy]

Worked with a few offshore personnel over the years. Most of them have been really nice guys and keen to learn - sometimes a bit too keen if anything.

One thing that I remember though. These guys used to come to UK for months on end. They were told by employer that they had to do this - no choice at all. One guy even missed the birth of one of his kids. Seemed to me a bit crap.

The management of the bobs also seemed to give the impression they'd do ANYTHING to get ahead though which worried me a bit.

[Magpie252]

TM are a bob shop. If you get accepted to work with them then it's because you have some skill that they can't import. Be aware that you will be seen as an expensive resource to them and will be pumped for information by the imports so that they can maximise the value they get out of you. Quite likely you will be dropped as soon as they have no further use for you.

Second this, delivered a major infrastructure project overseas a while back which included a small portion of support for first adopters.

Client brought in Infosys to run production support, they needed my knowledge & experience to support the deployment, made me a perm offer for a UK role that was almost tempting, but still much lower than the contract rate I was taking.

One of the other contractors there (first contact after being binned by one of the banks) fell for it, trained the off-shore staff in Pune & was then told that he’d failed his 6 month probationary period.

[psychocandy]

Yup, I turned down a role with BT which would have involved going through Silverlink (another Indian agency) who had the most appalling terms, which were just incompatible with a sensible business arrangement. My favourite was the one where I would have been prevented from working with any of their clients, including companies who were not yet their clients but they'd just had conversations with. Obviously completely unenforceable, but it was one of a long list of completely tulip clauses. Not overly relevant for this thread, but yeah it was a fun experience reviewing their contract.

Silverlink are the ones that sent the contract and terms before interview aren't they? Remember that...

[GillsMan]

I've got similar. Seen a gig working onsite at a household name but working for TCS (Tata Consultancy Services) which are a Bob shop also. (Agency is UK one).

Its an SC role which I guess is why they cant get someone from India in. The rate is very poor though. I guess BT outsource cheaply to TCS who then dont want to pay much for any contractors they take on board.

Must admit I am dubious about the way that these offshore consultancies do things and how things work.

IMHO, working on customer site via consultancy is often nightmare anyway. Consultancy pay (via agency) so they want you on site at their customer for as many hours per day they can get away with usually.

Yup, I turned down a role with BT which would have involved going through Silverlink (another Indian agency) who had the most appalling terms, which were just incompatible with a sensible business arrangement. My favourite was the one where I would have been prevented from working with any of their clients, including companies who were not yet their clients but they'd just had conversations with. Obviously completely unenforceable, but it was one of a long list of completely tulip clauses. Not overly relevant for this thread, but yeah it was a fun experience reviewing their contract.