Reply to: Unboomed! No notice period in contract

[Damon]

I have just had a contract reviewed that didn't have a termination option for myltdco.

The summary was it had little bearing on IR35 but wasn't generally a good contract situation to be in.

Having no notice could be seen as an employment indicator but set against the other contract terms unlikely to be a decisive indicator.

The advise was that myltdco should have the ability to walk away from a contract. Notice periods can be considered employment indicator but are defendable. They should not be more than 30 days.

Despite the agent I am dealing with saying it would be really difficult to get a notice period from Client HR dept. he has agreed to ask for 5 days but said 'expect 10' which I am interpreting as 'Client standard is 10 but we were trying it on with you'

[DirtyDog]

Since everyone's on the subject of IR35 and notice periods.. has anyone seen the following before:



Initially the contract is for 2-months, with the high probability of extension at the end of that period for a further year. To me this does bind you to the contractual period but the phrasing's a bit loose; "possible in the event of an important reason"

Define "important reason". If it's not in the contract then it's meaningless gibberish.

[jaleach]

Notice Period to be given by Consultant Company

Since everyone's on the subject of IR35 and notice periods.. has anyone seen the following before:

Notice Period to be given by Consultant Company:
"Only extraordinary termination of the Individual Contract possible in the event of an important reason existing in the person of the respective other party, which makes continuation of the Individual Contract unreasonable"

Initially the contract is for 2-months, with the high probability of extension at the end of that period for a further year. To me this does bind you to the contractual period but the phrasing's a bit loose; "possible in the event of an important reason"

[Damon]

No, you go do your own research. There's doubtless a lot of other things you haven't realised you don't know

The advice quoted is from Lawspeed, who were asked to comment on asymmetric notice periods a while back; for IR35 purposes no notice from the contractor and short notice from the client is the best option. Duration of notice makes no difference at all. I have no idea what guide you were reading, but there are only three applicable tests, one of which is an irreducible Mutuality of Obligation; one side not being allowed to leave before the work is done while the other can is a pretty good example of that.

And has been said many time, contractors don't need notice periods; they are of no practical value.

HTH.

Thanks for this.

Just be offered a contract with immediate termination on client side and none for me on a 9 month gig.

This helps a lot with my concern so will crack on with IR35 review but the contract looks a good one from that perspective.

[DirtyDog]

Nothing tricky about that, is there ? I never discuss rate in advance of the initial sales meeting and would always invest that time and effor in cultivating a potential future client. Then, when the clients requirements and my fit for the role are well established, and only then, would I put my bid in for the contract.

Seems business like to me, but there is a permie culture on both sides of the agency divide which sometimes makes its appearance in questions like yours, DD.

Boo

Sounds like you know more about how the OP works than any of their posts suggests.

If that works, then great, and for many small consultancies that's exactly how it works. However, most people on here do not work in that way - in a normal contracting situation, the agent / client gives an indication of what the role pays and where it is before you enter the more detailed negotiations. The OP implies that they are walking from the contract because they have only just found out what the rate is and where the client is (despite having two face-to-face interviews).

No, there's nothing "tricky" about it (and I don't think I said it was tricky), however I am surprised that the OP didn't know what kind of rate was likely to be on offer or where the work was. Obviously, that's not how you work, but I think it's a significant leap to suggest that because you work in a different way from most contractors, that's what the OP does.

[Boo]

Did you not know the rate and location at the outset? What changed between the start of the process and the end, apart from you having had two face-to-face interviews before deciding that the rate wasn't good enough for that location?

I just find it strange that you wasted your time doing two face-to-face interviews before you decided that you wanted more than the rate on offer to work in that location.

Nothing tricky about that, is there ? I never discuss rate in advance of the initial sales meeting and would always invest that time and effor in cultivating a potential future client. Then, when the clients requirements and my fit for the role are well established, and only then, would I put my bid in for the contract.

Seems business like to me, but there is a permie culture on both sides of the agency divide which sometimes makes its appearance in questions like yours, DD.

Boo

[Boo]

Purely out of interest, how do you complete a working practices questionnaire before you have started?

What I did with the QDOS WPQ was fill it in on the basis that the contractual terms were going to be met (they were in fact). For that particular gig I was working from home, supplying my own equipment etc etc and the contract and WPQ both reflected that situation. Then I sent it off along with the contract (also QDOS's) and schedule for client signature.

What is hard about that ?

Boo

[Edinburgh BA]

Contract schedule actually states that the supplier is obliged to work the full term of the contract. Client can give 2 weeks notice.

Feck that - contract term is 6 months! I had 2 face to face interviews to nail this as well.

I'd do it for a really good rate but it would have to be double good to make up for the IR35 unfriendliness of the situation and the fact that I've sold my ass for 6 months.

Get used to it, plenty of contracts out there with no notice period. Luckily, my last one was four weeks. Very unusual and if a notice period is given, it'll be maybe a week/two weeks. But they like to rope you in for the period. As said, they can't do this to permies, so you benefit from an IR35 perspective.

This is a hirer's market currently, so the rate you want and the rate you're offered in the local market in which you're working might not be the same thing. You've got a daily commute? Load up your iPod, buy a Kindle / Nexus 7, read a book, whatever. Look on the bright side, put it down to experience if it sucks and of course, after 6 months, you can walk away, been professional, delivered and your client will think way more of you than if you come up with some schtick about not feeling well.

[DodgyAgent]

This is a forum for the discussion of such things , yes?

As it happens, no I don't want it because I'd want a lot more money to insure myself against the scenario that it's a nightmare gig and I'm lumbered with it for the next 6 months.

You are a permie with a permie mentality. You are supposed to be providing a service to the customer.

[DirtyDog]

6 months is a long time when you are doing a weekly commute and the gig is boring.

If they were paying more than the 400 quid a day on offer I probably could have coped with the crap but, hey, we all have our price.

Did you not know the rate and location at the outset? What changed between the start of the process and the end, apart from you having had two face-to-face interviews before deciding that the rate wasn't good enough for that location?

I just find it strange that you wasted your time doing two face-to-face interviews before you decided that you wanted more than the rate on offer to work in that location.

[DirtyDog]

The questionnaire I was referring to was the qdos working practices questionnaire.

Purely out of interest, how do you complete a working practices questionnaire before you have started?

[Freaki Li Cuatre]

Don't see what the issue is here, take the contract do 6 months, if the interview, surroundings, toilets, were that bad you should just turn it down in the first place, if not just sign the contract and start invoicing,

so it might be s**t but or 6 months so what.

and as others say notice periods are not worth the paper there written on

6 months is a long time when you are doing a weekly commute and the gig is boring.

If they were paying more than the 400 quid a day on offer I probably could have coped with the crap but, hey, we all have our price.

[malvolio]

This is a forum for the discussion of such things , yes?

As it happens, no I don't want it because I'd want a lot more money to insure myself against the scenario that it's a nightmare gig and I'm lumbered with it for the next 6 months.

Well that's easy. Tell them you aren't starting unless you get a nn% increase on the agreed rate immediately. I'm sure that won't be a problem.

The questionnaire I was referring to was the qdos working practices questionnaire.

OK, fair enough; I'm sure QDOS know what they're asking for and why. I prefer my own resources and 12 years practice studying IR35 case law, but that's just me.

[Support Monkey]

Don't see what the issue is here, take the contract do 6 months, if the interview, surroundings, toilets, were that bad you should just turn it down in the first place, if not just sign the contract and start invoicing,

so it might be s**t but or 6 months so what.

and as others say notice periods are not worth the paper there written on

[SueEllen]

As it happens, no I don't want it because I'd want a lot more money to insure myself against the scenario that it's a nightmare gig and I'm lumbered with it for the next 6 months.

Either:
1. Tell client management the truth - no company wants suppliers on their premises who don't want to be there, or,
2. Lie and do things like say you are seriously ill, say a relation is seriously ill etc.

In addition if you talk to the client you may find that the contract length is not the same as what the agency has tied you in for. (Though I suggest you try and find this information out at interview.)