Reply to: If esteemed clientco asked you to post-date timesheet...

[Wanderer]

asked to post-date timesheet to the end of September, completing it today and recording the final week of the month with the days you plan to work as if they've been worked

Will the signatory not sign off a blank time sheet which you could hold on to and fill in at the end of the month with the actual hours/days worked and email them a copy?

[Old Greg]

I must admit I tend to agree with you post dating and signing is irregular. Just sign put the current date on and "f***" em. It is his problem with the auditors not yours. If you did get in trouble he won't help you, thank you or pay your fine.

This reminds me of drivers who push you to drive faster when they're behind, I always think to myself "you won't pay my fine if I go through a speed trap, and you won't thank me or apologise so f** you"

If you have to leave so what.

It did cross my mind. I laid out my proposed prices which includes post dating to the relevant person at the consultancy. I will not invoice until month end. I have an emailing accepting this and that is that I think.

[BlasterBates]

I must admit I tend to agree with you post dating and signing is irregular. Just sign put the current date on and "f***" em. It is his problem with the auditors not yours. If you did get in trouble he won't help you, thank you or pay your fine.

This reminds me of drivers who push you to drive faster when they're behind, I always think to myself "you won't pay my fine if I go through a speed trap, and you won't thank me or apologise so f** you"

If you have to leave so what.

[Old Greg]

It's all turned a bit fractious today.

My ignoring it won't work any more. Apparently, I have to post-date it because if I put today's date down and the auditors come in and see it, the signatory will get in trouble as it will look as if I am trying to claim for days I have not yet worked.

I am working via a consultancy and have asked them to confirm by email that they are happy for me to follow the post-dating process.

[Old Greg]

Get it in an email from the approver that he does this for convenience reasons and what you should do if you are sick or can't come in one day.

Sometimes having conversations over email does help you.

A nice idea SueEllen. Funnily enough, this is exactly the sort of request that would mark me out as a trouble maker whereas ignoring it an putting today's date on just get me a reminder to do it right next time.

[SueEllen]

Get it in an email from the approver that he does this for convenience reasons and what you should do if you are sick or can't come in one day.

Sometimes having conversations over email does help you.

[Old Greg]

I think this is fairly simple to resolve... just put a caveat somewhere on your invoice. Something like:

This invoice is based on timesheet reference xxxxxx. This timesheet is accurate from (date) to (date) with (date) to (date) being projections provided at client request to facilitate their operational procedures. This entire timesheet has been accepted by the client as a statement of billable work. Amendments to the projected dates will be dealt with as a credit note against future invoices.

Unless you're directly contracting your primary contract is with the agency, you need to get your legal bits straight with them. The invoice is the one bit of fully legal documentation you're putting out there regularly, the timesheet is not a binding legal document unless it says so in the contract. If you don't make a fuss of it on your invoices, i.e. don't make it the first paragraph or in bold lettering, then no-one will probably notice and you'll be able to contract on with your morals and legal position protected.

The trick with the agency invoice in this situation is to be 100% accurate. If you and the end client agree that your actual + projected work days equals 20 days in a month then bill for it, if you actually do 19 then give a credit note to your agency for that one day of money. That way, if those nice chaps and chapesses from HMRC come knocking then you've got a perfectly provable record with no moral or legal ambiguity around what you actually worked.

A good idea. Unfortunately the buggers have a self-invoicing system.

[craig1]

I think this is fairly simple to resolve... just put a caveat somewhere on your invoice. Something like:

This invoice is based on timesheet reference xxxxxx. This timesheet is accurate from (date) to (date) with (date) to (date) being projections provided at client request to facilitate their operational procedures. This entire timesheet has been accepted by the client as a statement of billable work. Amendments to the projected dates will be dealt with as a credit note against future invoices.

Unless you're directly contracting your primary contract is with the agency, you need to get your legal bits straight with them. The invoice is the one bit of fully legal documentation you're putting out there regularly, the timesheet is not a binding legal document unless it says so in the contract. If you don't make a fuss of it on your invoices, i.e. don't make it the first paragraph or in bold lettering, then no-one will probably notice and you'll be able to contract on with your morals and legal position protected.

The trick with the agency invoice in this situation is to be 100% accurate. If you and the end client agree that your actual + projected work days equals 20 days in a month then bill for it, if you actually do 19 then give a credit note to your agency for that one day of money. That way, if those nice chaps and chapesses from HMRC come knocking then you've got a perfectly provable record with no moral or legal ambiguity around what you actually worked.

[rd409]

Approver leaves the company. New approver audits what has been approved in the past, and finds that OG's timesheet was approved on a day when the approver was on holiday. New approver asks what happened and why.

Onus is now on OG to explain to someone who was not party to the arrangement what happened and why, and hope that the new broom accepts that. It's significantly easier to not be in the situation in the first place, than having to retrospectively prove that there was no intention to defraud.

That is assuming you get a chance to explain why you did that! This probably never happens, and you get canned staight away with your last invoice put in jeopardy. Without a written and agreed document , I would stay away from this kind of arrangements always.

[Old Greg]

Approver leaves the company. New approver audits what has been approved in the past, and finds that OG's timesheet was approved on a day when the approver was on holiday. New approver asks what happened and why.

Onus is now on OG to explain to someone who was not party to the arrangement what happened and why, and hope that the new broom accepts that. It's significantly easier to not be in the situation in the first place, than having to retrospectively prove that there was no intention to defraud.

As an aside, I did ask what the process is if you are sick on a day when you said you were not going to work on your post-dated timesheet. The answer appears to be to pretend you didn't work a day you actually did work the next month.

[TheFaQQer]

Not so if the OP and the timesheet approver are open about why it's being post dated. That is, for the approvers convenience. In which case, there is no intent to defraud.

Approver leaves the company. New approver audits what has been approved in the past, and finds that OG's timesheet was approved on a day when the approver was on holiday. New approver asks what happened and why.

Onus is now on OG to explain to someone who was not party to the arrangement what happened and why, and hope that the new broom accepts that. It's significantly easier to not be in the situation in the first place, than having to retrospectively prove that there was no intention to defraud.

[Old Greg]

No. I either sign it with today's date on it (and therefore the days are a projection of when I plan to work), or get it signed and dated at the end of the month.

The risk I see is that if you sign it now with a future date, and then you (or the approver) aren't there that day, you could end up in an argument of "it's not possible for that to be valid, because XYZ was sick that day, so he can't have signed it, so this must be a fraudulent timesheet" kind of thing.

Not so if the OP and the timesheet approver are open about why it's being post dated. That is, for the approvers convenience. In which case, there is no intent to defraud.

I agree there is no intent to defraud but it is still falsifying a doc IMO - not sure what the implications are of that. If they want a projection, they should accept it as such with today's date on it. What they really want is a projection that looks like it isn't a projection.

[Project Monkey]

No. I either sign it with today's date on it (and therefore the days are a projection of when I plan to work), or get it signed and dated at the end of the month.

The risk I see is that if you sign it now with a future date, and then you (or the approver) aren't there that day, you could end up in an argument of "it's not possible for that to be valid, because XYZ was sick that day, so he can't have signed it, so this must be a fraudulent timesheet" kind of thing.

Not so if the OP and the timesheet approver are open about why it's being post dated. That is, for the approvers convenience. In which case, there is no intent to defraud.

[Project Monkey]

Am I not then party to a conspiracy?

If there's no intent to defraud, then there's no problem.

[TheFaQQer]

... to the end of September, completing it today and recording the final week of the month with the days you plan to work as if they've been worked, what would you do?

No. I either sign it with today's date on it (and therefore the days are a projection of when I plan to work), or get it signed and dated at the end of the month.

The risk I see is that if you sign it now with a future date, and then you (or the approver) aren't there that day, you could end up in an argument of "it's not possible for that to be valid, because XYZ was sick that day, so he can't have signed it, so this must be a fraudulent timesheet" kind of thing.