Reply to: [IT] PHP Web developer London

[jamesbrown]

I think he means that, when the market was stronger, there would've been less competition. OTOH, demonstrating your skills correctly is totally independent of the state of the market. Anyway, good luck with your decision.

[cold]

Only a few years ago you would have been dead right

hmm you mean? ;-)

[MyUserName]

OK, thanks for all the advice and opinions.

Basically, at the beginning, saying I would like to go for contract work I didn't mean big contract for big projects for money > £300. I meant some simpler roles for less money and I thought it could be possible because I heard that employer anyway saves money because doesn't have to pay for sick, for holiday, for insurance, and other tax things.
But I see I was wrong

Only a few years ago you would have been dead right

[cold]

OK, thanks for all the advice and opinions.

Basically, at the beginning, saying I would like to go for contract work I didn't mean big contract for big projects for money > £300. I meant some simpler roles for less money and I thought it could be possible because I heard that employer anyway saves money because doesn't have to pay for sick, for holiday, for insurance, and other tax things.
But I see I was wrong

[northernladuk]

I really wouldn't do this. Sure, pimp any of the websites developed - whatever demonstrates your skills best - but don't emphasize pre-commercial (bedroom) experience, as it will create an impression of naivety that you're precisely trying to avoid. At 21, it is understood that you only have a few years of commercial experience. If someone is going to give you a chance, it will be on the basis of skills demonstrated, not length of experience, so don't try to blag something that is so obviously not there.

Totally +1. You are trying to sell yourself as a professional. Putting anything you did in your bedroom as a spotty youth is doing the opposite.

[jamesbrown]

If I were you, I would also massage my CV to mention that you have been developing for 8 years with 4.5 years of commercial experience.

I really wouldn't do this. Sure, pimp any of the websites developed - whatever demonstrates your skills best - but don't emphasize pre-commercial (bedroom) experience, as it will create an impression of naivety that you're precisely trying to avoid. At 21, it is understood that you only have a few years of commercial experience. If someone is going to give you a chance, it will be on the basis of skills demonstrated, not length of experience, so don't try to blag something that is so obviously not there.

[SueEllen]

Thanks!

It sounds much harder I thought it is.

Really do I have to have 10+yrs experience and be mega-expert to get any contract job (in web dev)?
I'm carrying on with that because on different forum I've found slightly different opinions:
programmers. stackexchange.com/questions/18349/the-number-of-years-experience-needed-to-be-a-contract-developer - freelancing - The number of years experience needed to be a contract developer - Programmers Stack Exchange
What do you reckon?

Reading your posts indicates you have some level of naivety.

Firstly many people in the IT industry who started programming when they were 11 or even younger. The industry was built on the back of hobbyists as there are many people over 45 years old who have no IT specific qualifications at all.

So stating you can learn things quickly when you are up against a 45 year old who not only has had to learn different technologies over the years but was self-taught from the beginning and also has the soft-skills a 21 year old is missing, is not going to be enough.

Secondly if you are only interested in contracting or freelancing for the money than forget about it. If you just want a different lifestyle then there is nothing stopping you starting while in permanent employment.

Here's a suggestion for you - get out your current employment contract and read it. Check for any clauses that prevent you from working for yourself while employed by your employer. If there are none then there is nothing stopping you taking on freelance work to do web development while employed. If there are such clause in your employment contract then either negotiate with your employer to get them changed, or change permanent employer and negotiate to ensure such clauses don't exist in your contract.

Now all you have to do is find the work, fit it in around your permanent job without it impacting on your career development, and sort out the tax implications.

Oh and I know other professionals both in and out of IT who do fit in freelance work around permanent employment.

[MyUserName]

Thanks!

It sounds much harder I thought it is.

Really do I have to have 10+yrs experience and be mega-expert to get any contract job (in web dev)?
I'm carrying on with that because on different forum I've found slightly different opinions:
freelancing - The number of years experience needed to be a contract developer - Programmers Stack Exchange
What do you reckon?

Whilst what the guys on there are saying is not 'wrong' they are talking about exceptions as if they are the norm.

Getting a contract with only a year's experience:

Is it possible? Yes - perhaps you are a genius and you know the client etc.
Is it likely? No.

Should you bet your finances on it? Your call, I would not.

It might be different with web stuff, perhaps you have a set of really amazing websites which you can show them? Is that how interviews work for web dev? I honestly do not know.

I would bet money that if it were C++ you did then you would not even get a look in unless you had some person contact with the company.

I have 15 years of industry experience and various satisfied clients that extended my contract when I was with them and would recommend my work to others. I have done programming tests dozens of times and know most of the likely questions and answers, I have most of the basic interview programs memorised (test if 2 strings are anagrams etc) so I can write them out at will. I have worked on highly complex systems with teams around the world that I can discuss and explain to clients to impress them (I have also done this enough times to know how to make it sound good and illustrate why I am just what the client needs) and I still get beaten now and then by other candidates. It is a tough market at the moment, not sure about web dev but I would have thought it would be the same.

Saying that you have been programming since 13 will not help you. The first thing to consider is that lots of high level programmers were doing that (even me!), there is no way to verify whether what you are saying is true and there is no way to really prove what you were doing - even if you have the actual program with you it does not show whether you were helped, you copied it etc.

[tranceporter]

Thanks!

It sounds much harder I thought it is.

Really do I have to have 10+yrs experience and be mega-expert to get any contract job (in web dev)?
I'm carrying on with that because on different forum I've found slightly different opinions:
freelancing - The number of years experience needed to be a contract developer - Programmers Stack Exchange
What do you reckon?

Have you tried applying to any contractor roles for PHP developer? If you have a showcase 50+ websites, you can always show them to your clients in an interview to push your point. I agree with some the opinions, that at your age you can do a bit more career progression, but if you feel that you are ready to step into the contracting world, then go for it! End of the day, it's not about what others think about you, but what you think of yourself, and what you want to do! If I were you, I would also massage my CV to mention that you have been developing for 8 years with 4.5 years of commercial experience. Since you sell yourself in the market to the pimps (agencies) via your CV, make sure you amplify your freelance experience, since it shows your hands-on experience of being a more rounded developer (since you do both front-end and back-end).

[cold]

Hmm... I see.

Anyway thank you guys very much for the help.

If anyone else would like to add something, don't hesitate, I will be jolly grateful.

[northernladuk]

You might not need it but you are going to be up against a raft of people that do which won't help. Telling them you have experience from 13 years old won't help your cause either.

[cold]

Thanks!

It sounds much harder I thought it is.

Really do I have to have 10+yrs experience and be mega-expert to get any contract job (in web dev)?
I'm carrying on with that because on different forum I've found slightly different opinions:
programmers. stackexchange.com/questions/18349/the-number-of-years-experience-needed-to-be-a-contract-developer - freelancing - The number of years experience needed to be a contract developer - Programmers Stack Exchange
What do you reckon?

[captainham]

Only after 13 years and umpteen projects did I feel confident enough to go freelance; some are made of sterner stuff and don't need so long, but if you have to ask about it on here, I'd suggest you don't fall into that category.

If you can stand on your own and rely on nothing but your own experience and knowledge then you're halfway there, but I think you have a way to go yet.

But by all means don't listen to anyone on here if you don't want to...we're all different so you should do what you think is right for you. Only you can be the judge of this, ultimately.

Just promise to come back and tell us how it went

[MyUserName]

I have not had contracts in web development. All of mine have been writing trading systems for investment banks. Generally I come in and they point me towards a PC and I setup and install bits I need, get told what needs to be done and start doing it. Once I had to write the automated trade verification section of a trade capture system, once I did the trade processing section.

As for what you should know, this is actually secondary - the question is what you can prove that you know?

Your problem with getting a contract will be your lack of experience - even if you are the best programmer in the world it is unlikely you will get the chance to show that as agents will look at someone who has done this for years longer, see that they have an established track record with clients they recognise and put them forward for the role instead as they are a safer bet.
Even if an agent put you forward the client would go through the same thinking process (you might be awesome but you might not be whereas someone who has done this job before is a far safer bet) and will pick them.

I was told I had a contract once by the client in an investment bank and got dropped at the last hour because someone who had done the same thing they needed doing there but in a different bank got in on the act. He had the experience and track record whereas I did not, at least not as much. They would have been unwise to overlook him for me (much as I was frustrated I could not argue their logic).

[northernladuk]

I know now it's not possible, but maybe in next 6 months / 1 year of hard work? (I'd like to become an expert in Symfony2, etc. in the nearest weeks I'm starting some large[not big, not huge, but not small] project using it).

1 year of work doesn't make you an industry tested expert in your field. Nor does one project using whatever. You are up against people that have done many years of solid experience and not including whatever they did in their bedrooms between the ages of 13 and 18. Even commenting on that shows a level of naivety that isn't going to help you I am afraid. That type of experience might be good if you are looking for a Saturday job over here but not to be a contractor.