Reply to: Travelling for client

[formant]

One thing I meant to add - although I won't charge for weekend days when I'm stuck away (as someone said earlier, my time's my own then), I WILL still charge expenses for all meals. With some clients, and depending on location, I'll also charge for car hire / train to head a bit further abroad, and of course for the hotel room. Last time in the USA the office was in Connecticut and I hired a car to visit Rhode Island. In Australia I hired a car for 2 weekends. If I decide to stay somewhere else over the weekend (rather than the hotel close to the office) then I'll either pay for it myself, or check out of the original hotel and charge for the "away" one, choosing one at a very similar cost.

My logic is that my time is my own, however I will not incur additional personal expense because of my clients choice to have me work somewhere that I don't have access to my own car, kitchen, etc.

Of course, as always, make sure your client agrees to this in advance.

We have agreed upfront that they are definitely covering car hire/transport as well as food/drink (actually, I didn't even need to bring that up, that was part of their offer). I may be somewhat agreeable about charging for my time with regards to travel, but I definitely wouldn't want to incur additional expenses!

[Ticktock]

One thing I meant to add - although I won't charge for weekend days when I'm stuck away (as someone said earlier, my time's my own then), I WILL still charge expenses for all meals. With some clients, and depending on location, I'll also charge for car hire / train to head a bit further abroad, and of course for the hotel room. Last time in the USA the office was in Connecticut and I hired a car to visit Rhode Island. In Australia I hired a car for 2 weekends. If I decide to stay somewhere else over the weekend (rather than the hotel close to the office) then I'll either pay for it myself, or check out of the original hotel and charge for the "away" one, choosing one at a very similar cost.

My logic is that my time is my own, however I will not incur additional personal expense because of my clients choice to have me work somewhere that I don't have access to my own car, kitchen, etc.

Of course, as always, make sure your client agrees to this in advance.

[formant]

I aim to travel during the working day and just bill as normal. I guess if you're on an hourly rather than daily rate it's negotiable. Doing what the permies do isn't always unreasonable.

economy - again you should discuss this prior to agreeing to travel. Client wanted me to go to Oz premium economy, so myCo paid for the upgrade. Well worth it IMO - and you can often get it cheaper on the day at the check in desk.

I am on an hourly rate, as when not travelling, I'm only part-time for now. Will keep the business class thing in mind for future travel (although within this contract there may not be any).

[formant]

In my opinion you have "properly started", I also think it is good business practice and common courtesy to start communicating with the client directly. Also as RasputinDude has said, the agent will spin you a line of complete BS.

Ok, cool, that's good to know for the future.

[mudskipper]

I aim to travel during the working day and just bill as normal. I guess if you're on an hourly rather than daily rate it's negotiable. Doing what the permies do isn't always unreasonable.

economy - again you should discuss this prior to agreeing to travel. Client wanted me to go to Oz premium economy, so myCo paid for the upgrade. Well worth it IMO - and you can often get it cheaper on the day at the check in desk.

[formant]

The agency *will* push back on this, with classic lines of "that's just not how we do it", "none of our other contractors have asked for that" and the classic "this could be a deal breaker".

They're lying. They do that a lot.

It's a tricky one to get right, certainly. For weekends / evenings when I'm away, I don't charge as I'm not working on the clients project - usually I can use the time to catch up on PlanB or something else as I'm away from the family.

Traveling time such as flights etc; I take the view that some journeys are part of the job and re-charge the cost. If I am losing a whole day to traveling then I would certainly expect to re-charge the cost to the client.

No time in lieu and no overtime though.

Cheers for the advice regarding agencies and travel. Good to be prepared.

Yeah, well I've also had permie employers where I could claim neither time off in lieu nor paid overtime. Stingy buggers.

For your journey - demand business class at least.

Damn. Too late. :-(
(I'm not all that fussed, but if that's a reasonable thing to request, well it would've been nicer...)

[JamJarST]

Will do once I properly start with them - just somehow thought that prior to starting it's 'normal' to go through the agent. But then, I'm new to this, so what do I know.

In my opinion you have "properly started", I also think it is good business practice and common courtesy to start communicating with the client directly. Also as RasputinDude has said, the agent will spin you a line of complete BS.

[formant]

Speak to the client directly from now on. It is ultimately them to which you are rendering a service and it is this business to business relationship that is important. Most of us on here would not trust an agent as far as we could throw them.

Will do once I properly start with them - just somehow thought that prior to starting it's 'normal' to go through the agent. But then, I'm new to this, so what do I know.

[RasputinDude]

The agency *will* push back on this, with classic lines of "that's just not how we do it", "none of our other contractors have asked for that" and the classic "this could be a deal breaker".

They're lying. They do that a lot.

It's a tricky one to get right, certainly. For weekends / evenings when I'm away, I don't charge as I'm not working on the clients project - usually I can use the time to catch up on PlanB or something else as I'm away from the family.

Traveling time such as flights etc; I take the view that some journeys are part of the job and re-charge the cost. If I am losing a whole day to traveling then I would certainly expect to re-charge the cost to the client.

No time in lieu and no overtime though.

For your journey - demand business class at least.

[JamJarST]

I haven't had direct contact with the client since my interview. Aside from picking up my IT equipment, I won't be in the UK office before the trip, so all comms are going through my agency at the moment.

I do know that the trip is 'all expenses paid' otherwise, which is what mattered most to me. Just want to know what to expect. I'm used to travelling similar distances as a permie with at most a day off in lieu or maybe at a push 4hrs paid overtime.

Speak to the client directly from now on. It is ultimately them to which you are rendering a service and it is this business to business relationship that is important. Most of us on here would not trust an agent as far as we could throw them.

[formant]

Didn't invoice any recouperation time or time I spent seeing sights. Being stuck on a plane is billable, being in a hotel to do what I want isn't.

Cool, cheers, that was sort of what I though and what quite a few people seem to be saying by now. Good stuff, no longer feel completely ignorant in approaching this. Shall speak to my agency then to get some answers/agreements sorted.

[formant]

It will depend on the client, but I travel a fair bit for clients and for me the "normal" expectation is:

Travel on weekend - charge for the day(s) travelling.
Away over a weekend - not chargeable, unless I'm actually doing some work at the weekend

If I travel during the week then the days I'm travelling are chargeable as normal, no matter how long the travel is. So if my day is longer as I have to leave home early, or arrive late, it's still just 1 day. For flying to Australia (just been working out there for 4 weeks) then it's longer - I departed on a Tuesday and arrived early on a Thursday (local time) - I charged for the Wednesday also, which I spent on a plane. Returning, I departed on a Friday and arrived early Saturday - I charged for both days.
For the longer flights some clients may allow you to charge for a days "recovery" either end, some won't and will expect you in the office the next day.

Bottom line, check with your client before you fly, as you don't want to muck about arguing over your invoice if they disagree later. If you can't agree up front as to what's chargeable, or you aren't happy with what they'll allow then it's your choice to either suck it up or refuse to fly and risk the contract.

Sounds good, cheers.

[northernladuk]

The last time I went to the States with work I invoiced the day I was flying as one day (even though it was a longer trip). Didn't invoice the Sunday as I was out and about enjoying myself. Billed all the days working Mon-Friday and invoiced the Saturday for flying back. Didn't invoice any recouperation time or time I spent seeing sights. Being stuck on a plane is billable, being in a hotel to do what I want isn't.

Going on a training course isn't an automatic pointer to IR35. There is nothing wrong with a client providing training on their systems to enable you to apply your skillset properly and effectively. If they are sending all the permies on a course and you jump in with them it is. Can't just automatically wave the IR35 flag, you have consider the situation.

[formant]

Agreed. I think from the client's perspective if I was paying a contractor's daily rate on top of the cost of flights, I would expect the contractor to be working during the flight and if this isn't practical (i.e. it's a new contract so you don't have any work to do yet) I would probably not want to pay the full rate either. Perhaps in this situation you could negotiate one day's rate instead of two as a compromise.

I guess there are two ways of looking at it: #1 you're a business and they're requiring you to travel to the US for training so they should pick up the tab for everything including your rate. Or #2 you try and find some middle ground to keep them happy (as it's the start of a new contract) and providing they're paying business class perhaps agree not to charge your rate while travelling?

Really it's whatever you can agree with the client though, and you could always refuse to travel if they don't pay what you want, but in that case I wouldn't expect them to keep you for very long...

I'm happy to be very agreeable in this (coming from permie-dom and associated lack of compensation for travel time), just don't want to go into these negotiations completely ignorant. So thanks for your input, all those options sound fine.

(Although this is 'training', it isn't like an accredited training course that will be of use to me for future contracts though, it's is relevant to this contract only.)

And they've booked me on economy :-(.

[Ticktock]

It will depend on the client, but I travel a fair bit for clients and for me the "normal" expectation is:

Travel on weekend - charge for the day(s) travelling.
Away over a weekend - not chargeable, unless I'm actually doing some work at the weekend

If I travel during the week then the days I'm travelling are chargeable as normal, no matter how long the travel is. So if my day is longer as I have to leave home early, or arrive late, it's still just 1 day. For flying to Australia (just been working out there for 4 weeks) then it's longer - I departed on a Tuesday and arrived early on a Thursday (local time) - I charged for the Wednesday also, which I spent on a plane. Returning, I departed on a Friday and arrived early Saturday - I charged for both days.
For the longer flights some clients may allow you to charge for a days "recovery" either end, some won't and will expect you in the office the next day.

Bottom line, check with your client before you fly, as you don't want to muck about arguing over your invoice if they disagree later. If you can't agree up front as to what's chargeable, or you aren't happy with what they'll allow then it's your choice to either suck it up or refuse to fly and risk the contract.