Reply to: Being Part of the 'TEAM'

[jmo21]

I had the opposite experience, actually. I was a contractor for a medium-sized insurance company when we had our second child and there was no card, congratulations or whatever as I was external and not part of the team. Fair enough, I thought. However, when one of the permies was in the same situation a month later and I was asked to contribute to the kitty I politely but firmly declined ...

I had a sort of similar situation when my daughter was born.

PermieA's kid was born a few months before. I politely declined to add to the present fund.

When my daughter was born, PermieB's wife had a baby the following day. I was off for 2 weeks.

PermieC then emailed the team for a collection for PermieB.

The contractors (approx 10) and also PermieA were raging that my baby had been bypassed if you like.

PermieA then arranged the collection for me. I was told that we did very well because of the way it happened.

I then felt incredibly guilty for not putting in for PermieA.

It also helped slightly that both PermieB and PermieC were 2 of the most widely reviled people must of us had ever had the mis-pleasure of working with.

[borderreiver]

Fellow contractor had first child about a week into me starting. Didn't know him that well but a £5 in the kitty to get him a card or some such bought some good will. Don't care about IR35 impact of me doing that.

I had the opposite experience, actually. I was a contractor for a medium-sized insurance company when we had our second child and there was no card, congratulations or whatever as I was external and not part of the team. Fair enough, I thought. However, when one of the permies was in the same situation a month later and I was asked to contribute to the kitty I politely but firmly declined ...

[CheeseSlice]

Cheesey,

Not sure about the booking holiday and then telling them idea to be honest. Could go a bit tong.

I agree the asking thing is bad idea but I always, out of courtesy, advise them of my plans and tell them to let me know if its a big problem for them. Seems fair enough.

Thats a reasonable approach. Actually now I read my own post it sounds a little bit like a 'screw you' to clientco. I'm not advising anybody start a contract and immediately book a week off within the first month or two. Common sense and being professional applies, such as booking far enough in advance, and thinking about any deadlines you've agreed to, the kind of work you do and how it may affect clientco.

I guess 'if' you check with clientco and how you do this depends on your preference. What I don't want to end up doing is giving the impression that a choice is the norm. One clientco I was with even tried pushing annual leave request forms on contractors.. talk about taking the mick.

[Sockpuppet]

Couldn't agree more. The card signing and all the crap is totally irrelavant to anything and is your choice. That is more relationship management and is totally up to you if you want to keep the client sweet or be a miserable bastard. People spend £1000's entertaining clients so buying cakes would fall under the same catagory for me. I don't see it as being part and parcel of the workforce.

Same. Fellow contractor had first child about a week into me starting. Didn't know him that well but a £5 in the kitty to get him a card or some such bought some good will. Don't care about IR35 impact of me doing that.

[psychocandy]

My advice is to fly the flag of a contractor early on. This makes it more difficult for them to chip away at your working practices later on.

e.g.
Breaks and lunch are not up for grabs. Don't ask clientco about them, don't talk about them.
Wear a suit. And if somebody tells you not to bother, definitely wear a suit or dress smarter than the rest.
Don't mix in to the 'family' too much. Depends on the workplace, but I don't like to be associated with permie coffee cliques, unless its with other contractors and the odd permie that tags along.
Bring a laptop in. Work on that if its not a secure facility, and if you can connect to their network, use as your main PC. Bring it into meetings.
Decline or don't go to meetings that have nothing to do with your work. This can be a difficult one, and may even upset some people, but if you're too busy then apologise and decline.
My favourite and a good litmus test: Book a holiday, obviously pick the time wisely. Don't ask, just book it (as in flights/hotels). Tell your clientco / project manager which week(s) you're not around for, purely out of courtesy.

I'm sure there are many more that others can suggest.

Cheesey,

Not sure about the booking holiday and then telling them idea to be honest. Could go a bit tong.

I agree the asking thing is bad idea but I always, out of courtesy, advise them of my plans and tell them to let me know if its a big problem for them. Seems fair enough.

[kingcook]

I’m currently gigging at a ClientCo. which is a partnership between a Telco and a local Council. I know I should have assumed it would be pubic sector hell but I just didn’t listen to the voices.

Ok so the dilemma is one which is trotted out here daily so apologies in advance. I am doing some BA work for the IT side as they are migrating their ITSM system. Apparently this makes me a part of the Service Management ‘team’. Ok well I’ll sit near you all but were on strictly biz2biz here no hanky panky.

No actually I have to sign leaving cards, donate to charity, eat free fruit (ok I’ll do this), take breaks/lunch when told (I ignore this) and start finish as told (again currently ignored politely)

All that I could stand in a diluted-roundabout-coming-to-a-mutual-understanding sort of way if IF it was toned down. BUT and here’s the cracker, here’s the bit to make you sit up and take note…

…when I’m ‘quiet’ (chortle) I will be expected to take part in and actively support the BAU work that the plebs do. Not only that but my ‘free time’ (you’re killing me here) will be quantified, boxed off to the same times each week and added to the rota. That’s ROTA. Essentially the divvies want me to divvy up my time in a structured way each week and make sure that x time on y day is free every time without fail.



They don’t have many Contractors it would seem in this dept. and those they do take on mysteriously leave soon after…

Show them a copy of your contract? Specifically, the bit that says what you're there to work on.

[northernladuk]

I'm sure there are many more that others can suggest.

One of my fave areas is making business decisions on behalf of the client particularly when dealing with live data. I make a point in refusing to authorise critical business changes without a member of client co having final sign off. My caveat line being 'Being a consultant I do not believe the responsibility/approval for changing/deleting live critical data should sit with me. Someone from the client should have final sign off/responsibility'. It's got to the point now that the client will actually say that in meetings to the project teams and steering co. Sorted. It's their data. I will advise but I will not take responsibility.

EDIT : Sorry, just some context, these teams normally made up of large offshore providors and our consultancy. It is pretty rare to have a client permie involved at this level.

[CheeseSlice]

My advice is to fly the flag of a contractor early on. This makes it more difficult for them to chip away at your working practices later on.

e.g.
Breaks and lunch are not up for grabs. Don't ask clientco about them, don't talk about them.
Wear a suit. And if somebody tells you not to bother, definitely wear a suit or dress smarter than the rest.
Don't mix in to the 'family' too much. Depends on the workplace, but I don't like to be associated with permie coffee cliques, unless its with other contractors and the odd permie that tags along.
Bring a laptop in. Work on that if its not a secure facility, and if you can connect to their network, use as your main PC. Bring it into meetings.
Decline or don't go to meetings that have nothing to do with your work. This can be a difficult one, and may even upset some people, but if you're too busy then apologise and decline.
My favourite and a good litmus test: Book a holiday, obviously pick the time wisely. Don't ask, just book it (as in flights/hotels). Tell your clientco / project manager which week(s) you're not around for, purely out of courtesy.

I'm sure there are many more that others can suggest.

[jmo21]

It might be worth a chat if you think you could explain to a PM or line manager that it's important you retain some sort of independence over how you work.

Yep. Bare in mind that in reality, that is only important to you, not them.

Fingers crossed you get someone reasonable.

[Bunk]

Thanks all.

Just to pick up on a couple of NLUK's points, I've murmured about this in the past as we all have on here but I strongly believe this is the declassification of genuine Contractors in full swing.

The service desk has 'Contractors' that would ordinarily have been temps and as such there is little distinction when you're a penpusher it seems. It may be a clientco thing and I’m being paranoid but it's not the first time I've seen it.

If I was performing virtual alchemy in a dark room or data centre I would likely be treated differently I know but not being an uber-geek means you are one of the plebs. I applied for a BA position, I interviewed for it and I got it. Then the landscape blurred a bit and went funny a few weeks in.

Anyhow I will see how we go this week. I am in before everyone most days and out after so the start/time and lunch things are currently inconsequential but this rota malarkey needs clarifying.

The reality is I suppose that there is a fine line between being an a*se about things and being a lap-dog. I do not fear walking away but I do also want to stay and deliver if allowed!

You have to be careful, ignoring clientco's wishes won't protect you from IR35 but it will piss them off and mark you out as unhelpful. The things I'd be worried about are "take breaks/lunch when told", "start finish as told", "take part in and actively support the BAU work" and "make sure that x time on y day is free every time without fail". That sounds like you'd fall foul of both 'direction and control' and 'mutuality of obligations'.

It might be worth a chat if you think you could explain to a PM or line manager that it's important you retain some sort of independence over how you work.

[Mephisto]

Thanks all.

Just to pick up on a couple of NLUK's points, I've murmured about this in the past as we all have on here but I strongly believe this is the declassification of genuine Contractors in full swing.

The service desk has 'Contractors' that would ordinarily have been temps and as such there is little distinction when you're a penpusher it seems. It may be a clientco thing and I’m being paranoid but it's not the first time I've seen it.

If I was performing virtual alchemy in a dark room or data centre I would likely be treated differently I know but not being an uber-geek means you are one of the plebs. I applied for a BA position, I interviewed for it and I got it. Then the landscape blurred a bit and went funny a few weeks in.

Anyhow I will see how we go this week. I am in before everyone most days and out after so the start/time and lunch things are currently inconsequential but this rota malarkey needs clarifying.

The reality is I suppose that there is a fine line between being an a*se about things and being a lap-dog. I do not fear walking away but I do also want to stay and deliver if allowed!

[northernladuk]

WHS. At the low level clients dont give a toss. You're just another person to do work.

IMHO kicking off about how special you are just pissed off client. They dont care - they just want the work done.

Fair enough about IR35 but reality is you can try your best but if you kick off too much you aint going to have a contract anyway.

Something best sorted out once and for all at the beginning of the contract IMO. Get it right first time with a confirmation letter or discussing with agent/client and then use that to fall back on. Don't be afraid to walk away if they don't give you the right signals. Easy to say but not easy to do when on the bench. If that is the case then you just need to understand the risk and not kid yourself. If you are in a gig and don't understand your own status something is wrong IMO.

[psychocandy]

Most clients don't give a bollock for IR35, what someone put in your contract etc etc.

Some are fine, some have issues, others can be a nightmare like your current "gig".

All they care about is getting the job done, and any whining from you will only achieve antagonising the client, even if you are entirely in the right.

So..... let us know what you do about it.

WHS. At the low level clients dont give a toss. You're just another person to do work.

IMHO kicking off about how special you are just pissed off client. They dont care - they just want the work done.

Fair enough about IR35 but reality is you can try your best but if you kick off too much you aint going to have a contract anyway.

[northernladuk]

No actually I have to sign leaving cards, donate to charity, eat free fruit (ok I’ll do this), take breaks/lunch when told (I ignore this) and start finish as told (again currently ignored politely)

Just a point on this as well... I don't think ignoring the clients request is helping your IR35 status at all. When investigated the client will tell the investigation you are expected to do this, this and that. The fact you don't adhere to it I don't think proves anything. A permie can ignore requests from their employer as well. The client is still treating you like a permie and this what counts. There 'may' be some defense that they don't take you to task about it like a permie i.e. there is some precedence over time but you are on a wish and a prayer there. If they say we expect him to do it but he was tardy and ignored it does not help you I don't think. Get it agreed.

[northernladuk]

You have my sympathies. Sounds like IR35 hell

Couldn't agree more. The card signing and all the crap is totally irrelavant to anything and is your choice. That is more relationship management and is totally up to you if you want to keep the client sweet or be a miserable bastard. People spend £1000's entertaining clients so buying cakes would fall under the same catagory for me. I don't see it as being part and parcel of the workforce.

The rest of it though.... Sounds like a checklist for client D&C to me. The only thing I could think to do is get everything asked of you in a contract so become part of your deliverables but they sound so adhoc I can't see how it can't be D&C. I would guess the telco wants you to be part of the team delivering to the end client. Even the best worded contract isn't going to help you here. I am currently part of a consultancy facing up to their end client but it is clear at both consultancy and end client level that I am a contractor and I work very differently to both the consultancy staff AND the client end staff. They all know I have been brought in to deliver a piece of work as part of the solution that consultancy was unable to deliver. It doesn't sound like your case at all.