Reply to: Educating your "line manager"

[kingcook]

Hmmm. Got a feeling a lot of clients might say - sod that, cant be arsed. Or at least not know who the person is for doing this.

The PM at my client did do a confirmation of arrangements, once I explained that it was designed to help us both in the event of HMRC starting an IR35 investigation. We both have the same story to tell and so it could speed up an investigation (and hopefully bring it to a swift close).

However, PM wasn't too keen on handing it in to his HR department with his signature on it! So we both agreed that he can keep it for his own personal records. Might not be perfect but it was better than nothing.

[psychocandy]

Hmmm. Got a feeling a lot of clients might say - sod that, cant be arsed. Or at least not know who the person is for doing this.

[Butcheroo]

Educating your "line manager"

Has anyone managed to get a client to agree to sign up to a confirmation of arrangements doc

Going to try that

[psychocandy]

Luckily at my client, email addresses flag up as contractor, as does my ID badge.

[SueEllen]

Exactly. Acting like a bellend just pisses clients off.

Why not be on internal phone or holiday spreadsheet? Surely, you can be an external resource but still be part of a team?

Be on the internal phone and holiday spreadsheet with a letter or word that denotes you are a contractor after your name.

It's not hard and that's all the guy needed to ask for.

Just means if the client doesn' t have a field for it your family name becomes "Smith (C)" or "Smith (Contractor)"

[psychocandy]

Sometimes the contract is inside IR35 because a temporary employee is what the client wants and you can't pretend otherwise.

I worked with a guy who'd refuse to help on anything other than his project, even in an "emergency", would wander in and out at will, refused to appear in the internal phone book or holidays spreadsheet etc. I don't know if this took him out of IR35 - it certainly took him out of work within a couple of weeks. Despite being a smart and helpful guy his behaviour just wound up the client no end and they binned him.

Having a tax code that rewards and encourages peeing off your clients is just barking mad (surely any additional tax burden should fall on the client in any sane system - they are the ones who actually benefit from having "temporary employees". I don't imagine many contractors would actually choose to be treated as employees even if it cost them nothing).

Exactly. Acting like a bellend just pisses clients off.

Why not be on internal phone or holiday spreadsheet? Surely, you can be an external resource but still be part of a team?

[dogzilla]

I'm a little confused by the attitude that is taken by some people here to behave like a business as if that is the answer for everyone. That won't work all the time.

I've just spent 3 weeks on a contract where they gave me a list of tasks and told me to bill them for my time. I went into the office twice and spent the rest of the time from home working the hours I wanted. Client was happy because the tasks were completed, they didn't care that I wasn't in the office 9-5. I didn't even check in or report as they could see the progress online. This work was sourced by myself through some contacts. I actually ended up billing less because I work more efficient when I can work when it suits me.

Now I'm on a longer contract, sourced through an agency, and they asked me to come in from 8am. Now I don't mind because it's a time critical project and they were upfront from the beginning. I don't get told off if I turn up later, as long as I'm in for the 10:15 stand up, it's just that they appreciate me coming in earlier when I can and I agreed to it. There is no way I could take the same sort of approach on this contract because they have specifically hired me to get the job done not piss around being my own boss.

I appreciate those of you on long term contracts wishing to stay outside of IR35 means you might have to be more aggressive in your approach to your working relationship with clientco.

[kingcook]

Sometimes the contract is inside IR35 because a temporary employee is what the client wants and you can't pretend otherwise.

I agree. And this is what you need to find out at interview stage. A good question to ask would be, "So, tell me about the project/work that needs doing" etc etc. Discuss the project in a bit more detail. This should give a huge clue as to whether they are looking for a contractor or a temp.

[supersteamer]

Sometimes the contract is inside IR35 because a temporary employee is what the client wants and you can't pretend otherwise.

I worked with a guy who'd refuse to help on anything other than his project, even in an "emergency", would wander in and out at will, refused to appear in the internal phone book or holidays spreadsheet etc. I don't know if this took him out of IR35 - it certainly took him out of work within a couple of weeks. Despite being a smart and helpful guy his behaviour just wound up the client no end and they binned him.

Having a tax code that rewards and encourages peeing off your clients is just barking mad (surely any additional tax burden should fall on the client in any sane system - they are the ones who actually benefit from having "temporary employees". I don't imagine many contractors would actually choose to be treated as employees even if it cost them nothing).

[psychocandy]

I've had in the past but the solicitor who I sent the contract to amended it to 7.5 hours as being the daily average for a "professional working day" which the agency accepted.

It's actually to protect you from clients who want you to work for 10 hours regularly without paying you for the extra hours, when the problem is down to them not you.

Interesting approach. I suppose gets it all up front that you aint gonna work 12 hours a day.

I've never had a problem with professional day bit know people who have. One mate turned up and was told - we're paying you loads so we want at least 10 hours a day. He told them to **** off.

[SueEllen]

Has anyone got a contract with no hours mentioned at all.

I've had in the past but the solicitor who I sent the contract to amended it to 7.5 hours as being the daily average for a "professional working day" which the agency accepted.

It's actually to protect you from clients who want you to work for 10 hours regularly without paying you for the extra hours, when the problem is down to them not you.

[Butcheroo]

Educating your "line manager"

In my last gig the guy who "Took Me On For an Agreed Length Of Time For My Services" knew nothing of IR35 and tried to get me to work on basically everything IT related (as the previous permie worked liked this) apart from being virtually impossible and could not do that so I sat him down and explained every thing to him IR35, D&C, MOO, etc , and basically said I will have to walk if you are wanting me to work like that. In the end he left me alone and I got on with my work and even signed a letter of arrangements for me.

Only a few days into the new gig and I've already received an email from an agency PM telling me I have to "request" time off.

qh

That's the problem. The contract says one thing but the people you work with want another.

Nicely explaining things and threatening to walk is way forward. Again another reason why money in the bank is key

I have spoken to accountants and PCG today and they still think a contract review will suffice.

[Gentile]

In my last gig the guy who "Took Me On For an Agreed Length Of Time For My Services" knew nothing of IR35 and tried to get me to work on basically everything IT related (as the previous permie worked liked this) apart from being virtually impossible and could not do that so I sat him down and explained every thing to him IR35, D&C, MOO, etc , and basically said I will have to walk if you are wanting me to work like that. In the end he left me alone and I got on with my work and even signed a letter of arrangements for me.

Only a few days into the new gig and I've already received an email from an agency PM telling me I have to "request" time off.

qh

Sounds like you did the right thing. I find the best approach is not to assume malice when ignorance will suffice as an explanation for people's behaviour. I find explaining the situation to them once in a civil way, then walking if they still don't get the difference between a contractor and an employee is the best way to go.

That said, I've never once yet had to explain to a client why I shouldn't be invited to join their pension scheme or be paid for my time off. It's amazing how selective people can appear to be about that they understand about those aforementioned differences...

[psychocandy]

They don't say times but always say minimum 7.5 per day etc

I am reading a new one now which says

Professional day - minimum of 7.5 hours being the estimate number of hours per day for completion of the project or such hours as ate reasonably requested by the client and required for the project.

I have seen similar on every contract. Surely if it did not say Anything the actual tasks would have to be detailed in the contract so you don't take the piss

Has anyone got a contract with no hours mentioned at all.

No hours on my contract just professional working day.

IMHO, when it comes down to the people at the coal face (managers etc) they just want you do the job, they know you're a little bit different, but basically want no hassle and want you to act sorta like a permie.

A couple of things you said:-

1. Working practices sorted with agency. WTF. They probably wont even know or care and may have lied here to get you on board.

2. Hours to work. Hmmm. Nothing wrong with working hours to fall into line with the organisation. This makes business sense to keep the client happy. Depends how arsey they are though with demanding things admitedly though.

3. Working from home. Dont see this as a right for a contractor so if they say no thats it.

4. Leave. I will check with client that my leave plans dont cause them undue hassle. If they had good reason why not then fair enough I would try to accomodate. What this client is doing - **** that. Bottom of the list- bollacks to that. Cheeky cow.

5. Substitution - Again they can refuse.

Sounds like this one is headed for rough water though. Might be time to consider alternatives since you and client cant seem to agree.

[quackhandle]

In my last gig the guy who "Took Me On For an Agreed Length Of Time For My Services" knew nothing of IR35 and tried to get me to work on basically everything IT related (as the previous permie worked liked this) apart from being virtually impossible and could not do that so I sat him down and explained every thing to him IR35, D&C, MOO, etc , and basically said I will have to walk if you are wanting me to work like that. In the end he left me alone and I got on with my work and even signed a letter of arrangements for me.

Only a few days into the new gig and I've already received an email from an agency PM telling me I have to "request" time off.

qh