Reply to: Why do companies prefer employees?

[mos]

So you are through a brolly or are claiming yourself inside IR35 and doing your books to suit??

Great point - to specify, this job was initially advertised as permanent, anticipating continuous flow of project work as well as some BAU. Suitable candidate for permanent position was not found and because the project "A" was very urgent - the company got persuaded to take on contractor - on the basis of clearly defined project work (A).

My contract was checked for IR35 compliance. Hope that the fact that the job was initially advertised as permanent will not be questioned by HMRC.

I gather from your earlier posts that you know about this stuff should I be worried?

[northernladuk]

I have been taken on as a contractor for permanent job. The rate was £100 lower than my normal rate but the project was very interesting. It is likely that the company will be trying constantly to convert you to permanent.

So you are through a brolly or are claiming yourself inside IR35 and doing your books to suit??

[mos]

I have been taken on as a contractor for permanent job. The rate was £100 lower than my normal rate but the project was very interesting. It is likely that the company will be trying constantly to convert you to permanent.

[beaker]

Recently I have had to decline a few lucrative offers, based solely on the fact that I would have to become an employee of a given company.
Normally, I wouldn't mind but it was a really cool project and I began to wonder what sort of perceptions prevent contractors and little Ltd from getting work.
I think is the notion of control - it seems many managers expect that they can bend an employee to do whatever in however many hours it takes. I think the only difference is that the Ltd would bill for the extra hours whereas employees often spend a few stressful month, fail to achieve the goals and quit or are let go. Here the issue lies with middle management - who have to deal with limited budgets and other formal constraints.

Do you think that after being approached by a large organisation, it makes any sense to try and convince them to take you on as a business rather than an employee?
Has anyone had any success with this, what arguments did you use? Were agencies of any use (potentially a higher margin for them)?

I think you're missing the point... if the hiring manager is looking for a permanent employee, there's not much point trying to convince them otherwise - unless you can do it cheaper.

After completing a contract I've often been asked to join (at half to 2/3rds the gross pay) and politely declined and offered to take on another project on a contract basis. You win some you lose some and move on.

[stek]

Learn some Urdu or Hindi and practise on them.

You will end up with a quiet office when they think you can understand what they are saying.

My mate taught me a sentence in Hindi, I still remember it 'Vo bolta hai' I forgot what it means (I talk to him, I think) - but I practised it perfectly intonation wise and said it at work at the tea making oasis as it was called. All the Indian lads looked at me panic-stricken!

[SueEllen]

The official rules may be one thing, but from where I've been sitting the last 10 years or so on contracts, well... I feel like a stranger in a strange land; although that might be because I don't speak the language?

Learn some Urdu or Hindi and practise on them.

You will end up with a quiet office when they think you can understand what they are saying.

[nomadd]

Sorry it's just not possible to become a Citizen after a year, it would take six years via Tier 1/2, five for permanent residency.

You've no idea how much better that makes me feel - sat in an office surrounded by Injuns, no matter which direction I look or listen... And watching them drag the wife over to the UK and knock out several kids.

The official rules may be one thing, but from where I've been sitting the last 10 years or so on contracts, well... I feel like a stranger in a strange land; although that might be because I don't speak the language? Honestly, I feel more "at home" when I'm playing Skyrim.

[stek]

Indian Project Managers working for the IB I'm currently sat in; and the six others at my last IB client, again all permie. Visa for a year, and them become a UK employee/citizen. Easy peasy for the Banks to pull off.)

Sorry it's just not possible to become a Citizen after a year, it would take six years via Tier 1/2, five for permanent residency.

[Peoplesoft bloke]

Permies have an aversion to anyone getting paid the proper market rate to do anything, hence they will try to get permie staff at low prices. When that fails and if the job needs doing, they need contractors. They also like to feel they are in control even if they aren't.

[SueEllen]

This^ (edited down slightly from original - oh, and SueEllen forgot to mention they'd search India as well as Europe.

Depends on the business and what sector it's in.

Some of them just go straight to Eastern Europe while others just ask their off-shore "subsidiary" straight away.

People forget there are high levels of unemployment in other countries in Europe and off-shore subsidiaries can be anywhere in the non-western world.

[nomadd]

Your wasting your time.

The fact that it's permanent means they will search the entire EU a couple of times until they are sure they can't find someone.

As you interviewed for a permanent job even if you turn up and take the contract they will be putting pressure on you to go permanent.

This^ (edited down slightly from original - oh, and SueEllen forgot to mention they'd search India as well as Europe. EDIT: And before someone tells me it's illegal for them to do that, please inform the two permie Indian Project Managers working for the IB I'm currently sat in; and the six others at my last IB client, again all permie. Visa for a year, and them become a UK employee/citizen. Easy peasy for the Banks to pull off.)

[oscarose]

Q. Why do companies prefer employees?
A. Management like to employ monkeys who they can run ragged and give them some kind of sense of power (however deluded).

[Taita]

Recently I have had to decline a few lucrative offers, based solely on the fact that I would have to become an employee of a given company.
Normally, I wouldn't mind but it was a really cool project and I began to wonder what sort of perceptions prevent contractors and little Ltd from getting work.
I think is the notion of control - it seems many managers expect that they can bend an employee to do whatever in however many hours it takes. I think the only difference is that the Ltd would bill for the extra hours whereas employees often spend a few stressful month, fail to achieve the goals and quit or are let go. Here the issue lies with middle management - who have to deal with limited budgets and other formal constraints.

Do you think that after being approached by a large organisation, it makes any sense to try and convince them to take you on as a business rather than an employee?
Has anyone had any success with this, what arguments did you use? Were agencies of any use (potentially a higher margin for them)?

It is nothing personal nor has it anything to do with control.

Large corporations do not like exceptions. Departmental heads have enough problems delivering projects to budget and on time.

They do not want any more hassle with Accounts, HR, Legal or Procurement.

If they do not already have a suitable mechanism in place to engage a business they will not create one just to suit a contractor however high they rate him.

[SueEllen]

Your wasting your time.

If the company wanted to take you on as a contractor directly and they are the type to use one-man bands they would have advertised the role from the start as a contract.

The fact that it's permanent means they will search the entire EU a couple of times until they are sure they can't find someone. This can take anything from 3 months (if the role is actually urgent) to 2 years.

As you interviewed for a permanent job even if you turn up and take the contract they will be putting pressure on you to go permanent.

[northernladuk]

Wouldn't you immediately fail IR35 if you convinced them to take you on as a contractor for a full time role? To convince them and and convince yourself you are outside IR35 is dangerous territory.

The two types of taking someone on are not comparable or interchangeable IMO..... You do not take permies on for a project, you take them on as a vaulable resource to the company going forward across many projects. Contractors are used and abused.

Large organisations also have PSL's so can't just take any one man band on.

I expect in large companies they are obliged to fill a role, not a position on a project. Different things.

This might work for a smaller company but the politicts and process in a large company are going to be tougher.