Reply to: Permie->Contract-Geographical Considerations

[dundeedude]

Dude, take the contract, form limited company, buy sandwiches for lunch. Get over it. You won't regret it.

Have verbally accepted, with B&C's Guardian Plus service used to negotiate with the agency et al.

Buy nervous, but given I get nervous when contemplating whether to spend £19 on a DVD, this isn't a surprise.

Will be joining PCG+ as soon as Limited Co is set up next week, as well as any other appropriate insurance.

Thanks for the information and expansion on points.

[Whoosh]

Currently having our famous forum reviewers look at contractual terms and working situation to see if it is viable.

My inclination now is to take the role, as long as favourable IR35 contractual terms can be negotiated.

It's quite a scary situation to delve into, but I'm trying to worry less!

Dude, take the contract, form limited company, buy sandwiches for lunch. Get over it. You won't regret it.

[SimonMac]

If I was wary, I'd make sure that I had adequate insurance in place, should anything go wrong.

I wonder if Hector will ever go down the "well you have IR35 insurance so you must think yourself you are caught" route

[TheFaQQer]

Mention of the canteen, gym and other social benefits will not be worded in the contract, so if you are worried don't use them and when asked "well they are only for staff aren't they".

I wouldn't turn down a contract just on these factors

If I was wary, I'd make sure that I had adequate insurance in place, should anything go wrong.

[SimonMac]

I don't think I can take the contract, unfortunately, as the client treats contracts like employees. They have use of a free canteen, gym and other social benefits.

Mention of the canteen, gym and other social benefits will not be worded in the contract, so if you are worried don't use them and when asked "well they are only for staff aren't they".

I wouldn't turn down a contract just on these factors

[dundeedude]

Currently having our famous forum reviewers look at contractual terms and working situation to see if it is viable.

My inclination now is to take the role, as long as favourable IR35 contractual terms can be negotiated.

It's quite a scary situation to delve into, but I'm trying to worry less!

[TheFaQQer]

I don't think I can take the contract, unfortunately, as the client treats contracts like employees. They have use of a free canteen, gym and other social benefits.

That doesn't stop you taking the contract, but it does make it less financially enticing.

The agency have informed me the contract would be IR35 friendly. Assuming the contract is IR35-friendly, and I appropriately expense from Edinburgh to Aberdeen each week with associated costs to my Ltd company, what is the risk if I do this for 6 months?

Contract is nothing; working practices are everything. If you are investigated, then chances of a successful defence are reduced. If you knowingly go into the contract believing that you are IR35 caught, but do nothing about that, then you could be charged penalties as well as the outstanding tax.

In the back of my mind I would still be responsible for ensuring the client's attitude towards me was not that of their employee, but of a company providing services. That, to me, seems the sticking point.

Your point of view will be over-ridden by that of the client.

If you want to take the contract, then I would consider the TLC35 insurance policy from Qdos, which pays out any investigation costs as well as any taxes and liabilities due.

[dundeedude]

Obviously, until you enough knowledge to do it for yourself. But don't "recommend", negotiate.

You can ask. 99% of them won't sign, since it subverts their contractual position. They also fondly believe that (a) the contract covers that already and (b) you are just a another employee, but with a funny salary scheme.

Employee? Permie thinking. You should do this anyway. You're the expert, or you wouldn't have the job. You are no longer a worker, you are selling services

Why? And why do think you have the option?


No. HTH


Seriously, you still haven't twigged the fundamental change in how you work and how you approach it.

You misread - I meant keep separation from the client's employees and social affairs, such as use of free gyms and free canteen.

I don't think I can take the contract, unfortunately, as the client treats contracts like employees. They have use of a free canteen, gym and other social benefits.

The agency have informed me the contract would be IR35 friendly. Assuming the contract is IR35-friendly, and I appropriately expense from Edinburgh to Aberdeen each week with associated costs to my Ltd company, what is the risk if I do this for 6 months?

In the back of my mind I would still be responsible for ensuring the client's attitude towards me was not that of their employee, but of a company providing services. That, to me, seems the sticking point.

[Joeman]

I can expense driving, but I doubt I can expensive from Edinburgh to Aberdeen and back once per week

If your home is in Edinburgh and you are working in Aberdeen then you claim for travel from Edinburgh to Aberdeen and also for your lodging and meals while working at Aberdeen.

Just to clarify, you expense the cost of travel against your own LTD company, not against the client, thus reducing corp tax liability.

[SueEllen]

Couldn't I avert any suspicious by:

1) Get contract reviewed by specialist, recommend changes
2) Get client to sign some working conditions document
3) Maintain professional etiquette and employee separation from the company where possible
4) Change clients every ~6 months

Shouldn't that be enough?

IR35 is done on every contract. So even if you have two or more contracts simultaneously one of those could be IR35 caught due to your working practises.

On point 3 while you are not an employee, there are some things that you legally are obliged to do working on another company's site.

I suggest you read the beginners guides and have fun using the search facility on this site to answer your questions, as if HMRC come knocking they will want their pounds of flesh.

[Wanderer]

I can expense driving, but I doubt I can expensive from Edinburgh to Aberdeen and back once per week, so presumably I can only expensive from my unregistered lodgings in Aberdeen to the company premises? I'm not trying to milk this, it's just Edinburgh is my home-place where my life concerns are present, and I've been interviewing there recently.

If your home is in Edinburgh and you are working in Aberdeen then you claim for travel from Edinburgh to Aberdeen and also for your lodging and meals while working at Aberdeen.

There is a good take home pay calculator. Don't go umbrella if you can avoid it - you will get stung for a fortune in tax...

[malvolio]

Couldn't I avert any suspicious by:

1) Get contract reviewed by specialist, recommend changes

Obviously, until you enough knowledge to do it for yourself. But don't "recommend", negotiate.

2) Get client to sign some working conditions document

You can ask. 99% of them won't sign, since it subverts their contractual position. They also fondly believe that (a) the contract covers that already and (b) you are just a another employee, but with a funny salary scheme.

3) Maintain professional etiquette and employee separation from the company where possible

Employee? Permie thinking. You should do this anyway. You're the expert, or you wouldn't have the job. You are no longer a worker, you are selling services

4) Change clients every ~6 months

Why? And why do think you have the option?

Shouldn't that be enough?

No. HTH


Seriously, you still haven't twigged the fundamental change in how you work and how you approach it.

[dundeedude]

No, it's HMRC's assessment of the situation based on the facts presented that matters. If you say one thing and the client says another, then HMRC are more likely to give stronger weight to the view that supports theirs.

Even if the client doesn't want to shaft you, anything they say may hang you.

e.g.

is significantly weighed against the contractor than

The two answers provide the same information, and they are both correct. By giving the first response, HMRC have something from the client that helps show you were an employee, though. It's not something that the client deliberately says to shaft you, it's just that since they don't know IR35, they tend to use terms which are common to employment.

Couldn't I avert any suspicious by:

1) Get contract reviewed by specialist, recommend changes
2) Get client to sign some working conditions document
3) Maintain professional etiquette and employee separation from the company where possible
4) Change clients every ~6 months

Shouldn't that be enough?

[dundeedude]

Have you read the LJL case? Client came clean and hung him out to dry royally in doing so. It is nothing to do with shafting or defending. They say how it is. Bear in mind it is how they treat you that makes the difference I don't think it is your word against theirs at all.

I have indeed read a few summaries of this case. It seemed to me that the lad worked for the same company for many years, and at a certain point of time some implied terms and working conditions changed; which is understandable if he's worked for the same place for a very long time, and has not taken care to be highly meticulous in his workings.

[TheFaQQer]

You are mad at me arne't you....

aren't