Reply to: Contractors - Your Turn!!

[cojak]

Oh and I'd like a contract that states clearly that I'm outside of IR35 (yes, really, I am).

I'm going to send yours to B&C and will reject it if it isn't.

You can find out more from the PCG website.

HTH

[Denny]

If you want a job how about you make an effort to get one..

We don't want a job - that's for potential permies. What we're actually doing is flagging up our availability as owner managed businesses so that you can do your job of introducing us to your client. After all, that's what EBs are for: to source contractors for their clients, not find contractors work. That's what agents do and you're not an agent.

That's why you would only get a copy of my sales brochure which is in pdf and copywrited - and has no contact details on that would give you a ready made excuse not to use it to forward on.

If you want us to act like businesses, then try treating us like business owners not jobseekers.

[privateeye]

I can't see a real need for a contract candidate to know the name of the client.

We might not want to work there and can save everyone a lot of time by knowing this info in advance. There is also the problem that we cannot prevent our CV's being duplicated if another agent wants to put us forward. This is a real problem especially in London where so many of our clients are in a square mile so simply saying an investment bank in London doesn't help. As a manager I get involved in the recruitment side so do know for a fact that duplication of CV's can hinder your chances.

The name of the client quite often can give us a more detailed description of the work culture and technologies used - more so than the job description a recruiter is supplied with as often HR don't have the latest version.

Any way its Friday I'm going home - have a great weekend.

[IT contract agent]

He is either not on the PSL or the PSL is not properly enfoced or the client does not have a PSL. What our friend is talking about is "trading" or in other words "body shopping". They start with a few CVs and a database of clients. They ring the client up saying that they have a very good **** available is the client interested in seeing the CV? if the client says no then the agent asks:

1 if he is looking for anyone else now or in the future
2 Is there anyone else looking in the company.

It is a numbers game and eventually the agent will pick up a requirement. This is the opportunity he/she longs for. It is all action stations to find a candidate. Of course the client and the agency hardly know each other at all so the chances are that the client will have given the job to someone else or would not be averse to giving it to other agents who may happen to call in the future. In order to protect his position the agent pretends that he and the client are old buddies, refuses to let on who the client is etc etc.

An agent worth his salt will start off with this technique. The agent if he is really good will have already gleaned information about the client from the internet, other contractors or contacts prior to making the cold call. Your references help these people enormously.

Finding good recruitment agents who will do this work day in, day out is very very hard. Most agents will stop and live off their existing contacts having attained the earnings they need. The very good ones will not stop networking.

The PSL has largely put a stop to this and I am not sure it is an entirely good thing unless it is very carefully run and suppliers are tightly measured. If a PSL is in place to make life easier for HR/resourcing then it should not exist. If it is in place to make life easier for hiring managers (not having to take continuous calls from agents) or to aggregate demand accross a large company to get discounts then it is probably a good thing.

One more thing any good recruitment consultant worth his salt would not be paying regular visits to this board

I agree with most of that -

My day is a mix of cold calls and candidate calls. Cold calling is something that I think shouldn't die and you're right in saying that a good recruiter should do this - an excellent recruiter will do this and not sit back on their existing clients.

Re the PSL issue - I've said before I rarely work on our PSL accounts. New business is the way to earn money. If you're good enough to win new business then there's no need to work PSLs - unless you want an easy life. I can't see a real need for a contract candidate to know the name of the client.

Re me on here - its a Friday, I've had a decent week this week - and I'm a mix of the person you described. I am constantly cold calling but I've done years working 15 hour days and weekends at S3 so have a decent client base also - I cut myself slack now

[privateeye]

The PSL has largely put a stop to this and I am not sure it is an entirely good thing unless it is very carefully run and suppliers are tightly measured. If a PSL is in place to make life easier for HR/resourcing then it should not exist. If it is in place to make life easier for hiring managers (not having to take continuous calls from agents) or to aggregate demand accross a large company to get discounts then it is probably a good thing.

One more thing any good recruitment consultant worth his salt would not be paying regular visits to this board

A couple of places I've worked the PSL was set up to stop departmental heads accepting incentives from recruiters etc. Mostly I know from being involved in the recruiting side wherever I am is to stop the constant cold calling. I agree that clients should monitor their PSL's - quite simply all they have to do is ask a candidate about the recruiter who got them in.

[DodgyAgent]

So you are not on the PSL? - is that why you also don't like to name the client? Just interested in if these two are both linked

He is either not on the PSL or the PSL is not properly enfoced or the client does not have a PSL. What our friend is talking about is "trading" or in other words "body shopping". They start with a few CVs and a database of clients. They ring the client up saying that they have a very good **** available is the client interested in seeing the CV? if the client says no then the agent asks:

1 if he is looking for anyone else now or in the future
2 Is there anyone else looking in the company.

It is a numbers game and eventually the agent will pick up a requirement. This is the opportunity he/she longs for. It is all action stations to find a candidate. Of course the client and the agency hardly know each other at all so the chances are that the client will have given the job to someone else or would not be averse to giving it to other agents who may happen to call in the future. In order to protect his position the agent pretends that he and the client are old buddies, refuses to let on who the client is etc etc.

An agent worth his salt will start off with this technique. The agent if he is really good will have already gleaned information about the client from the internet, other contractors or contacts prior to making the cold call. Your references help these people enormously.

Finding good recruitment agents who will do this work day in, day out is very very hard. Most agents will stop and live off their existing contacts having attained the earnings they need. The very good ones will not stop networking.

The PSL has largely put a stop to this and I am not sure it is an entirely good thing unless it is very carefully run and suppliers are tightly measured. If a PSL is in place to make life easier for HR/resourcing then it should not exist. If it is in place to make life easier for hiring managers (not having to take continuous calls from agents) or to aggregate demand accross a large company to get discounts then it is probably a good thing.

One more thing any good recruitment consultant worth his salt would not be paying regular visits to this board

[privateeye]

There are unfortunate clients out there, I'm sure, who don't know I exist - however I can do for them what other agencies may not be able to. (provide quality candidates in a niche area)

Many clients use PSL agencies - PSL agencies may work for HR but are often not great for the Hiring manager. PSL agencies working low margin business with an account manager who will one day work a PM role and the next a junior Java dev role with a testing role tomorrow.

Like you do your job I do mine - and that is to call and sell to clients

So you are not on the PSL? - is that why you also don't like to name the client? Just interested in if these two are both linked

[kramer]

***duck Low Flying Handbags****

[DodgyAgent]

Are you an IT agent????

Its the first time you have worked with a candidate - there is no trust there, and all we have done is speak for 20 minutes on the phone about a job - I know nothing else about him - I have relationships with contractors who will milk recruiters for info and then call me with the lead - the guy I have spoken to for 20 minutes may have a similar relationship with other agents

Yes I am a recruitment agent, however the relationship that I have with clients is such that I either have exclusive business or it is a PSL. Of course if you are in the body shop business then I suppose there is a need to be utterly anal about who your client is. - Very much the S3 model, not our game.

[IT contract agent]

You can rest assured that the client knows when they want a contractor and will approach the recruiters of their choice to do a search so the claim that the recruiters are making this market is not quite right. If you didn't get the job someone else will and those recruiters will come to us so we don't need to give the information to make contracts for someone else - it makes the receiver of the information happy but makes no difference to the giver of the information.

There are unfortunate clients out there, I'm sure, who don't know I exist - however I can do for them what other agencies may not be able to. (provide quality candidates in a niche area)

Many clients use PSL agencies - PSL agencies may work for HR but are often not great for the Hiring manager. PSL agencies working low margin business with an account manager who will one day work a PM role and the next a junior Java dev role with a testing role tomorrow.

Like you do your job I do mine - and that is to call and sell to clients

[IT contract agent]

I would be interested to hear exactly what these reasons are. My own view is that the reason why contractoes are not told is because the agency only has a flakey relationship with the client.

The only reason that I can see for not giving a name is if the client is recruiting for a project and does not want people to know that the project is about to happen. In this case there is no harm in just explaining this to a contractor when you put him forward.

Are you an IT agent????

Its the first time you have worked with a candidate - there is no trust there, and all we have done is speak for 20 minutes on the phone about a job - I know nothing else about him - I have relationships with contractors who will milk recruiters for info and then call me with the lead - the guy I have spoken to for 20 minutes may have a similar relationship with other agents

[DodgyAgent]

there are reasons why we don't tell candidates who the end client is

I would be interested to hear exactly what these reasons are. My own view is that the reason why contractoes are not told is because the agency only has a flakey relationship with the client.

The only reason that I can see for not giving a name is if the client is recruiting for a project and does not want people to know that the project is about to happen. In this case there is no harm in just explaining this to a contractor when you put him forward.

[privateeye]

you need to understand that working likes this makes the contract world go round - I may get you a job that another candidate has given me the lead for. Likewise I may place another candidate in a lead I picked up from you. I always tell contractors why I'm asking what they've got on - I've no issue with that. There is nothing underhand in what I'm doing

You might do this with honest intention but many do not, I have to protect my interests and ensure my CV is not duplicated etc. I have been a victim of a recruiter deliberately sending my CV to a client he already knew it was received. The intention was to destroy my chances there so I would take his potential offer in preference. The IT Director called me to query what was going on. It might make the contract world go round for you but as you see it can be used to great effect to ruin my chances.

Only last year someone from a certain group wanted to put me forward for a role I was already submitted for and I simply said that. They found out from the client that I was to have a telephone interview and at what time. The recruiters response was to start phoning me 10 mins prior to the interview time and keep on ringing asking pathetic questions to stop the interviewer getting through to me but they failed - as I have two phones. That's two examples of recruiters trying to destroy my chances by having information and using it wrongly.

All some of us contractors are doing is defending ourselves against those recruiters who try to destroy our chances, unfortunately those good recruiters get caught in the flack.

You can rest assured that the client knows when they want a contractor and will approach the recruiters of their choice to do a search so the claim that the recruiters are making this market is not quite right. If you didn't get the job someone else will and those recruiters will come to us so we don't need to give the information to make contracts for someone else - it makes the receiver of the information happy but makes no difference to the giver of the information.

I actually give recruiters information that have built up long term working relationships with me and who if they do not have the work give me pointers to where I may find it. In short a trust has built up. I will not just give information to any stranger that calls.

The real big failing here is the one question I have never been asked at an interview or whilst on a contract - What do you think of the recruiter and the recruitment process? I do not know of one client that asks for that feedback, if only they bothered to listen we could rid ourselves of bad recruiters as I'm sure clients would not wish to use a recruiter that constantly gets bad feedback.

[Town&CityConsulting]

you need to understand that working likes this makes the contract world go round - I may get you a job that another candidate has given me the lead for. Likewise I may place another candidate in a lead I picked up from you. I always tell contractors why I'm asking what they've got on - I've no issue with that. There is nothing underhand in what I'm doing

I concur, despite the obvious barriers between agents and contractors, they do work hand in hand. for example, I had a contractor today that gave me some companies he had worked for as he thought it would help other contractors, and he is right, that could be someones next big contract, he then proceeded to tell me a company he wants to work for but they only use agencies, so I have put him forward for a role, cmon guys, we scratch each others back whether u like it or not.

[IT contract agent]

You need to understand that many recruiters refuse to name the client and instead insist that contractors name everywhere their cv has been put forward - we know this is just a tactic to get sales leads etc and that is why a lot of contractors don't respond in your favour. If there wasn't so many people trying to cheat us we would not be in this position. Contractors have to be on their guard all the time.

you need to understand that working likes this makes the contract world go round - I may get you a job that another candidate has given me the lead for. Likewise I may place another candidate in a lead I picked up from you. I always tell contractors why I'm asking what they've got on - I've no issue with that. There is nothing underhand in what I'm doing