Reply to: Agency Percentage. Does it matter or not?

[craig1]

Isn't this just the "smaller companies are more flexible and give a personal touch" argument that has been heard in all industries, as small record shops are crushed by chains, Tesco put corner shops out of business, etc?

It may well be true but a large company also offers stability, a 2-bit agency might be a joy to work with until the day their client goes bust or delays payment. Then you wish you'd been with a soulless, bloated agency with the reserves to withstand such problems.

That's why I put "well established" in my point. Some of the small, niche agencies are fantastically profitable on lower margins than the big agencies that target those niche markets as part of their general service.

[d000hg]

On that specific point, and on the original topic, in my decade+ of contracting I've discovered that the larger the agency, the higher the margin plus the poorer the service both the client and contractor receive. Also, the larger the agency, the less they actually know about contracting and businesses. One massive recruitment agency's "legal department" were arguing strongly that a LLP could not be considered a "limited company" and did not have any independent legal status so I'd have to go on PAYE with them.

A small, well established agency can usually run rings around the larger ones for smaller margins (while still making good profit) combined with greater all-round skills and service for both client and contractor.

Isn't this just the "smaller companies are more flexible and give a personal touch" argument that has been heard in all industries, as small record shops are crushed by chains, Tesco put corner shops out of business, etc?

It may well be true but a large company also offers stability, a 2-bit agency might be a joy to work with until the day their client goes bust or delays payment. Then you wish you'd been with a soulless, bloated agency with the reserves to withstand such problems.

[The Agents View]

What about processing payments and providing remittance advice slips?

Done by accounts - that's where we put all the people who can't write properly.......

[pmeswani]

Oh and I forgot. Bidding for work - again, written.

What about processing payments and providing remittance advice slips?

[craig1]

Especially if your company happens to BE a large, corporate business, that happens to be a recruitment company.

On that specific point, and on the original topic, in my decade+ of contracting I've discovered that the larger the agency, the higher the margin plus the poorer the service both the client and contractor receive. Also, the larger the agency, the less they actually know about contracting and businesses. One massive recruitment agency's "legal department" were arguing strongly that a LLP could not be considered a "limited company" and did not have any independent legal status so I'd have to go on PAYE with them.

A small, well established agency can usually run rings around the larger ones for smaller margins (while still making good profit) combined with greater all-round skills and service for both client and contractor.

[The Agents View]

sending CVs = General writing knowledge (spelling, grammar, ability to write a brief pitch)
Arranging interviews = Confirmed in written format.
Negotiating assignments = Often written, generally confirmed in written form.
Negotiating assignments = See above

Add in:

Post MEETING clients - followed up in written form.
Approaching tough to reach clients - often through written approaches
Marketing - How the heck will people know what you do, if you can't express it in the written form?

No - there's no writing involved in this job

Politics happen. Especially if your company happens to BE a large, corporate business, that happens to be a recruitment company.

Oh and I forgot. Bidding for work - again, written.

[The Agents View]

Nonsense, your job involves:

1. talking to clients
2. Talking to contractors
Your activities include sending CVs, arranging interviews, negotiating job offers, negotiating extensions. I don't see the word "write" or "written" anywhere. You shouldnt be playing internal politics working for a recruitment agency where you stand or fall on placements. It is not like working for a large highly political corporate. Recruitment consultants usually start worrying about office politics when they are failing in their job.

It does not involve any written work at all

sending CVs = General writing knowledge (spelling, grammar, ability to write a brief pitch)
Arranging interviews = Confirmed in written format.
Negotiating assignments = Often written, generally confirmed in written form.
Negotiating assignments = See above

Add in:

Post MEETING clients - followed up in written form.
Approaching tough to reach clients - often through written approaches
Marketing - How the heck will people know what you do, if you can't express it in the written form?

No - there's no writing involved in this job

Politics happen. Especially if your company happens to BE a large, corporate business, that happens to be a recruitment company.

[craig1]

Oh yes they do! They may not like to do it but more and more, one of the conditions of doing business that they have to reveal their margin. If they don't then there's a suspicion that they are ripping people off.

An example of how revealing margins is becoming more acceptable in general business work. Last big project I managed (£45m cash expenditure), the main supplier was taken on in an "open book" deal of cost + 8%. At the end of the project, the client's procurement manager guy sat down with one of their accounts receivable ladies and spent the best part of a day tying up their invoices to us with their invoices to their suppliers.

A couple of really big suppliers were upset at being summarily rejected at the RFP stage when they refused to give us either fixed prices or "open book" on expenses and purchases. The company we took on had the highest RFP cost but they were the only one openly honest enough not to underbid then make their money through grossly over-margined purchases or padded hours claims. In all, the client's procurement manager estimated we'd saved about 5% overall than if we'd gone for a cheaper bid that had lots of hidden "extras" bolted on.

I've also been in more than a few companies where their main IT reseller or supplier is operating on an "open book" policy. Reseller gets a guaranteed margin with reduced admin costs around procurement negotiations over every single bit of kit bought, client gets reduced procurement costs and also a big lump of trust that they're not being ripped off.

It's far more common than people imagine.

[DodgyAgent]

In an ideal world - yes they would. But the world is not ideal.

The point is making sure that the bulltulip on the front of the CV, is not bulltulip

But written skills count for far more when it comes to politics, internal communication, and having to convince F***wits who don't pick up the phone, and general life

Nonsense, your job involves:

1. talking to clients
2. Talking to contractors
Your activities include sending CVs, arranging interviews, negotiating job offers, negotiating extensions. I don't see the word "write" or "written" anywhere. You shouldnt be playing internal politics working for a recruitment agency where you stand or fall on placements. It is not like working for a large highly political corporate. Recruitment consultants usually start worrying about office politics when they are failing in their job.

It does not involve any written work at all

[The Agents View]

Written English is not important. I thought you were so close to your clients that they would take you at your word rather than some written bulls*It on the front of the CV.

In an ideal world - yes they would. But the world is not ideal.

The point is making sure that the bulltulip on the front of the CV, is not bulltulip

But written skills count for far more when it comes to politics, internal communication, and having to convince F***wits who don't pick up the phone, and general life

[DodgyAgent]

If you apply the employment agency model to the estate agent world you would get this:

You go to sell your house and you want £550k for it. An estate agent gets a buyer lined up and tells you he can get £500k for it. In the mean time, the buyer has agreed to pay the estate agent £600k for the house.

So the estate agent quietly screwed both parties and pockets the £100k and no one is the wiser because both parties are under strict instructions not to speak to each other about the price. Eventually, the deal is done and then both parties find out how much the agent pocketed and are livid. Agent consoles himself by buying a new Ferrari.

With the possible exception of the Ferrari bit, that's the model employment agents want to (and often do) operate. Unfortunately for them, clients and contractors are getting wise to their sharp practices and high margins and insisting that the margin is revealed. Failing that the client will tell the contractor how much they are paying the agency and make sure the contractor is not getting getting ripped off.



Oh yes they do! They may not like to do it but more and more, one of the conditions of doing business that they have to reveal their margin. If they don't then there's a suspicion that they are ripping people off.

As I've said before, I don't grudge agencies their margin but I DO want to know how much it is. If the agent were recruiting a permie then the client would know how much it was costing for this service. Why should the cost of a contractor be hidden like this? It doesn't make sense.

I think you will find that the (lack of) principles are the same

[DodgyAgent]

You've probably picked most of the key traits. The communication element is the key - mainly verbal, but written is also very important - alot of the time we have a cover page which needs to be to the point, accurate, and well thought out, detailing features and benefits (as when selling anything).

Ability to close/ask awkward questions is in there as well.

For me, having the guts to give people feedback, whether it's good or bad.

Organisational skills (not our strongest trait in a written sense generally) but the ability to keep on top of who you've said you'll call back, and when is pretty high on the list.

Lateral thinking. Sometimes, things aren't done in the usual way (for example if rate is slightly too low, you can make an "expenses" payment, which incurs no margin). The other example is sometimes businesses don't have the credit rating to do business with - being able to find a way around this which keeps the bean counters at bay, is often fairly important.

Networking - it sounds simple, but so many people are tulip at it. Contractors are often the worst!

Other than that, if you're prepared to give your life to the job (my phone is never off) then you'd be fine.

You're right about market knowledge - it comes with time - but the ability to gather that market knowledge is pretty key as well - I've seen far too many people who want to pretend to be an expert when they know JS, is ridiculous. I built my market knowledge by ASKING people for help, because I Don't know - and I continue to ask and take on board the information passed to me!

Written English is not important. I thought you were so close to your clients that they would take you at your word rather than some written bulls*It on the front of the CV.

[Wanderer]

But going back to the original subject, in the EA world, the buyer (who is essentially the contractor in this example) actually doesn't give a toss how much the EA charges the Seller.

If you apply the employment agency model to the estate agent world you would get this:

You go to sell your house and you want £550k for it. An estate agent gets a buyer lined up and tells you he can get £500k for it. In the mean time, the buyer has agreed to pay the estate agent £600k for the house.

So the estate agent quietly screwed both parties and pockets the £100k and no one is the wiser because both parties are under strict instructions not to speak to each other about the price. Eventually, the deal is done and then both parties find out how much the agent pocketed and are livid. Agent consoles himself by buying a new Ferrari.

With the possible exception of the Ferrari bit, that's the model employment agents want to (and often do) operate. Unfortunately for them, clients and contractors are getting wise to their sharp practices and high margins and insisting that the margin is revealed. Failing that the client will tell the contractor how much they are paying the agency and make sure the contractor is not getting getting ripped off.

Nobody reveals their margins in business, for exactly the same reason as recruitment agents don't - it has F All to do with anyone but the person paying the bill.

Oh yes they do! They may not like to do it but more and more, one of the conditions of doing business that they have to reveal their margin. If they don't then there's a suspicion that they are ripping people off.

As I've said before, I don't grudge agencies their margin but I DO want to know how much it is. If the agent were recruiting a permie then the client would know how much it was costing for this service. Why should the cost of a contractor be hidden like this? It doesn't make sense.

[The Agents View]

That made me wonder if I received a PM from an agent detailing their skillset, what would it contain? I assume the agents skill sets are on the whole more personality traits as opposed to core skills that are learnt through study, experience and training. Having said that, as behavioural responses to situations can be practised and learnt now I am confusing myself.

So what skills would I require to be successful in the recruitment industry?

Communication Skills? - Mostly verbal I suppose as from personal experience agents are not that great with email comms.
Commercial and Contract Law? - I assume there must be unique situations that arise that require the agent to understand certain business situations that they need to manage and exploit. The employment regs I take as a given
Political Skills - Probably under-estimated by most code monkeys on this site. I would assume this manoeuvring, cajoling, pacifying needs to take place in all areas i.e. with colleagues, end clients, contractors etc.
A thick skin - I think this is mandatory. More of a personality trait than a skill but an underrated one I feel. Contractors have this to some degree but agents are probably the real experts.
Opportunistic - Again a personality trait but an important sales-like skill. Without sales (as so many techies forget) there would be no project.
Market Knowledge - Something that is picked up with experience I guess. Not a skill as such but something that happens with the passing of time.

What else?

You've probably picked most of the key traits. The communication element is the key - mainly verbal, but written is also very important - alot of the time we have a cover page which needs to be to the point, accurate, and well thought out, detailing features and benefits (as when selling anything).

Ability to close/ask awkward questions is in there as well.

For me, having the guts to give people feedback, whether it's good or bad.

Organisational skills (not our strongest trait in a written sense generally) but the ability to keep on top of who you've said you'll call back, and when is pretty high on the list.

Lateral thinking. Sometimes, things aren't done in the usual way (for example if rate is slightly too low, you can make an "expenses" payment, which incurs no margin). The other example is sometimes businesses don't have the credit rating to do business with - being able to find a way around this which keeps the bean counters at bay, is often fairly important.

Networking - it sounds simple, but so many people are tulip at it. Contractors are often the worst!

Other than that, if you're prepared to give your life to the job (my phone is never off) then you'd be fine.

You're right about market knowledge - it comes with time - but the ability to gather that market knowledge is pretty key as well - I've seen far too many people who want to pretend to be an expert when they know JS, is ridiculous. I built my market knowledge by ASKING people for help, because I Don't know - and I continue to ask and take on board the information passed to me!

[fckvwls]

You are welcome to PM your skill set if you'd rather not post in public.

That made me wonder if I received a PM from an agent detailing their skillset, what would it contain? I assume the agents skill sets are on the whole more personality traits as opposed to core skills that are learnt through study, experience and training. Having said that, as behavioural responses to situations can be practised and learnt now I am confusing myself.

So what skills would I require to be successful in the recruitment industry?

Communication Skills? - Mostly verbal I suppose as from personal experience agents are not that great with email comms.
Commercial and Contract Law? - I assume there must be unique situations that arise that require the agent to understand certain business situations that they need to manage and exploit. The employment regs I take as a given
Political Skills - Probably under-estimated by most code monkeys on this site. I would assume this manoeuvring, cajoling, pacifying needs to take place in all areas i.e. with colleagues, end clients, contractors etc.
A thick skin - I think this is mandatory. More of a personality trait than a skill but an underrated one I feel. Contractors have this to some degree but agents are probably the real experts.
Opportunistic - Again a personality trait but an important sales-like skill. Without sales (as so many techies forget) there would be no project.
Market Knowledge - Something that is picked up with experience I guess. Not a skill as such but something that happens with the passing of time.

What else?