Reply to: Is this allowed by agencies?

You may like to think that, but for me agencies just do the introductions then I take it from there. Yes, contractually speaking the agency sits between me and the client (mostly for legal reasons it seems) but I don't generally see that they add any value. If the client's PSL changes and a new agency comes along then I'm not going to cry about it.

No offence, because you appear to be one of the better ones but generally speaking agencies are two a penny. If a client wants me to come back and work for them I will negotiate the gig directly with the client then the client will put me up for grabs and which ever agency on the PSL that offers the smallest cut, sensible contract and reasonable payment terms will get the deal.

I'm sure there are times when agencies add value, but for my network of contacts I don't see the need to get back in touch with the client through an agency that I will end up being bound to use and possibly taking a rate cut because of it.

Yeah, I believe this is spot on. For the most part, agents don't do any more than introduce you to the end client. And the 'vast' majority of them are quite poor at both understanding the client, the requirements, and the skills of the contractor and matching them all together correctly. In other words, they don't truly understand what 'due diligence' means in terms of engaging in a contract, because at the first sign of trouble, they run for the hills.

I live for the day when I'll be able to engage ALL my clients directly rather than have to go through agents. Its already happening through arenas like LinkedIn.

To be fair, there are a couple of agents that I do like to pursue opportunities through but its few and far between, and its only because they do the due diligence thing well. But most don't and they prove an unfortunate hurdle to have to cross over to get to the real deal where you basically sell yourself into the client environment. For those of us who come from a career in working for consultancies and who have honed the 'opportunity development' thing well, we just wish the agents would get out of the way and lets us do our job !!!!

[Ignis Fatuus]

Dear Hector.......

FUD. The agent's friend.

[The Agents View]

If a client wants me to come back and work for them I will negotiate the gig directly with the client then the client will put me up for grabs and which ever agency on the PSL that offers the smallest cut, sensible contract and reasonable payment terms will get the deal.

Dear Hector.......

[Wanderer]

Errrrrr.....well thats odd, because unless you have been contracting direct, then the only clients you have are agents/agencies.

You may like to think that, but for me agencies just do the introductions then I take it from there. Yes, contractually speaking the agency sits between me and the client (mostly for legal reasons it seems) but I don't generally see that they add any value. If the client's PSL changes and a new agency comes along then I'm not going to cry about it.

No offence, because you appear to be one of the better ones but generally speaking agencies are two a penny. If a client wants me to come back and work for them I will negotiate the gig directly with the client then the client will put me up for grabs and which ever agency on the PSL that offers the smallest cut, sensible contract and reasonable payment terms will get the deal.

I'm sure there are times when agencies add value, but for my network of contacts I don't see the need to get back in touch with the client through an agency that I will end up being bound to use and possibly taking a rate cut because of it.

[The Agents View]

Or because they are tied into agency contracts who don't think laterally about these things. Ever tried "adding people into the equation" when there's an agency handcuffing the deal? Blimming impossible. If you allow your contractors to bring in people to help within their ltd companies and increase their billing, without you getting first dibs on poaching them direct, then you're the only agent in the country who does.

I'm not sure we're on quite the same page - Generally the reality of substitution is awkward -s o I see what you mean there, but, if you know someone for a job I'm working on at a different (or the same) client, and they get the contract, I'd happily allow you to put them through your limited company, and make your own arrangements in the background. I have people who do this - it's a quick solution for clients, and can be quite cost effective. The arrangements I have vary, but generally the guys take £25 per day on top of the daily rate for the paperwork. Some of them have 5 or 6 people working in the same limited company, so they make £625 per week just off of the people who work under the same company name.

Of those, I think some of them are sub sub sub contracted (ie my contractors Ltd,. pays their ltd co.) and some of them work on the payroll of the company.

Personally, I think it's one of the most effective ways of recruiting - I make my margin, you guys make a few quid, end consultant is working, and OK the client is paying a little more than they COULD, but without that incentive, they'd not have the calibre of person - Ultimately everyones a winner if the projects get delivered.

Rare? Maybe, but this is the way I'm paid to think.

Happy Friday everyone

[VirtualMonkey]

To answer the OP (rather than moan about agents/contractors not running their lives the way we would like), why not tell the agent the truth? For example (if this is true) you could say that you will accept that contract if offered, subject to its terms being acceptable, and if you have not in the meantime accepted another offer; but much as you would like to get his contract, you will not stop looking elsewhere until you have a definite contract.

It's cheeky but understandable for him to ask you to take yourself off the market and wait for him, but you don't have to do so and you don't need to be rude in telling him so.

Got to agree with this. I recently declined a contract when it came through because it had changed from a 6 month term to a 1 month term. Taking myself off the market would have been foolish. Haven't heard a peep from the agent since then but at least I declined the contract in a professional and polite manner, explained the problem and walked away knowing i did the right thing for my company. Hard on the agent as he had to start again but it happens.

[Ignis Fatuus]

To answer the OP (rather than moan about agents/contractors not running their lives the way we would like), why not tell the agent the truth? For example (if this is true) you could say that you will accept that contract if offered, subject to its terms being acceptable, and if you have not in the meantime accepted another offer; but much as you would like to get his contract, you will not stop looking elsewhere until you have a definite contract.

It's cheeky but understandable for him to ask you to take yourself off the market and wait for him, but you don't have to do so and you don't need to be rude in telling him so.

[VirtualMonkey]

In my opinion relationships with agencies cost nothing so why not cultivate them. For most people they're the best marketing tool you have and represent excellent value for money (as they don't actually cost the contractor anything). Sure there are some wide boys out there but even they might just come up with the gig that allows you to fill someone else and build your own business in the way being described. You don't have to like someone to have a good relationship with them.
The relationship I have with my current agent is excellent and has been for two and a half years (even though i've only been contracted to his company for less than two years). He looks out for me and I do my best to give the best service possible not only as a representative of my own company but his as well.
Net effect: we're both winners and make heaps of cash because clientco get the best service and keep coming back for more

[Aman]

Because we're all stupid, and never remember your name after you've screwed us about - so of course next time you come begging for your next "juicy contract" we will just get on and find you one....

Seriously - is the relationship dead these days? Perhaps the recession is worse than I thought?

Seems to be, from the agent's side.
There used to be a time when I'd discuss with an agent the projects I'd be interested in getting in on and I'd tell them the hiring managers name. Not now. I note the last few telephone calls from agents have resulted in my CV being plundered for leads.

If we are on contract that is client time, not time for conversations that don't lead anywhere. Most agents don't even have the manners these days to ask if it's a good time to talk. The fact they are not asking makes it quite transparent their call is for phishing.

[thunderlizard]

The reason some of you guys will always be one man band Ltd companies, is because you don't think laterally about these things.

Or because they are tied into agency contracts who don't think laterally about these things. Ever tried "adding people into the equation" when there's an agency handcuffing the deal? Blimming impossible. If you allow your contractors to bring in people to help within their ltd companies and increase their billing, without you getting first dibs on poaching them direct, then you're the only agent in the country who does.

[The Agents View]

No offence intended but we never had a relationship, darling. It was the contracting equivalent to a drunken snog in a seedy bar. The agent gets the contractors number just in case something comes of it but the contractor ends up in a stable contract and the contact number is a burner. The contractor has no need to have 100 agents phoning up with a job that "exactly matches their skillset" but turns out to be a phishing trip. Don't call us, we'll call you if and when we ever need you again.

Yep, and that point, I'll tell you that I've got my eye out for you, and sling your CV in the bin. This is a two way street - we're not on call to work for you, and if you happen to call to say you're looking, expect to be Phished. People who I have a relationship, will always be interested in hearing about an opportunity. I will never phish amongst my own stock. The contractors I have long term relationships with (and some of mine date from the start of my career) know that opportunities I'm working on, could be worth them looking at, maybe for themselves, maybe for someone they know, or maybe for someone who they can run through their limited company and take a cut.

The reason some of you guys will always be one man band Ltd companies, is because you don't think laterally about these things. Some of the biggest consultancies in the world started off with one person taking day rate contracts, then building upon it by adding people into the equation, until there were enough people to start bringing in perm resource (fixed cost) - KPMG, Capita, Accenture etc etc all started out like this, or with a variation of it.

All my relationships are with previous clients who I respect and keep in touch with. I don't tend to have relationships with agents any more.

Errrrrr.....well thats odd, because unless you have been contracting direct, then the only clients you have are agents/agencies.

[Wanderer]

Because we're all stupid, and never remember your name after you've screwed us about - so of course next time you come begging for your next "juicy contract" we will just get on and find you one....

Sure you will.

Seriously - is the relationship dead these days?

No offence intended but we never had a relationship, darling. It was the contracting equivalent to a drunken snog in a seedy bar. The agent gets the contractors number just in case something comes of it but the contractor ends up in a stable contract and the contact number is a burner. The contractor has no need to have 100 agents phoning up with a job that "exactly matches their skillset" but turns out to be a phishing trip. Don't call us, we'll call you if and when we ever need you again.

All my relationships are with previous clients who I respect and keep in touch with. I don't tend to have relationships with agents any more.

[The Agents View]

I always get a pre-paid burner SIM for my mobile and throw away email address when I'm job hunting. I don't want these guys hassling me once I'm home and dried with a nice juicy contract.

Good luck!

Because we're all stupid, and never remember your name after you've screwed us about - so of course next time you come begging for your next "juicy contract" we will just get on and find you one....

Seriously - is the relationship dead these days? Perhaps the recession is worse than I thought?

Spending review tomorrow - wooohooo

[Wanderer]

So far the agency concerned with the position has called me 3 times to make sure my situation has not changed and I am still available.

"Absolutely sir! I'm doing nothing else except waiting beside the phone to hear your offer."

If you are serious about taking the job then that's cool, but don't deliberately mess people about, it's not good form.

I confirm that if I am offered it I will accept it so if they do offer it to me they will accept for me on my behalf and get paperwork out straight away

As Zippy said, "Yes, My LTD will accept subject to contract".

No legitimate business will misunderstand this statement. There are two key parts to this reply,

1. Your limited company is accepting the contract, not you personally. Always speak in the third person. They are engaging your company, not you. As director it is most likely that you will be the front man who carries out the work but the contract is between your company and the agent. Read that again because it's important.

2. Subject to contract means that you need to come to a mutual agreement on contract terms. If you don't want the contract then you can wriggle out of it by failing to agree terms when they present you with a standard contract and agencies hate changing their standard contract. Telling them you won't agree to working for the client exclusively through their agency is a real killer. Of course, if they are really dodgy then they'll try to get you to start work before the contract is signed. Don't ever start without a signed contract, there are numerous stories on here from people who have been burned by doing this.

I'm sure the agent will then kick up a huge fuss when I say no at that point as they will say I agreed to take it and verbally accepted??!!

Oh yeah, they threaten all sorts of stuff - they do this sort of stuff all the time, it's their business. Remember, their threats/bluff/bluster are against your LTD company (which has limited liability so they won't get anything if they sue) so don't worry too much. You do need a thick skin when dealing with them sometimes though.

If you are unfortunate enough to have to turn them down after accepting (and I sincerely hope it doesn't come to this) then you are probably best to just tell them politely but firmly that you aren't going to take the contract and then ignore them until they give up and go away.

I always get a pre-paid burner SIM for my mobile and throw away email address when I'm job hunting. I don't want these guys hassling me once I'm home and dried with a nice juicy contract.

Good luck!

[Zippy]

Just say yes to the agent and then keep looking. If you accept another offer and the first agency also comes back with an offer, take whichever you prefer.

WHS. Until you have signed a contract there is no problem with accepting something else. Just tell the agent you'll accept subject to contract.