Reply to: What is your opinion?

[malvolio]

Are you really arguing that we need an "Inside IR35" pointer??

What I said was that in the proposed Malvolio-world there are two classes of contractor - agency temps, employed by the agency or an umbrella and so exempt from IR35 because they pay full tax and NICs anyway, or freelancers with their own companies who have the usual IR35 problems to resolve. The third class, who use composites purely as a tax avoidance, are out of the frame anyway and should be caught for IR35, since that is the "fair" option.

[Denny]

Mailman, go away and learn to think, then try again. Let us assume the agency has had a head fit and has constructed contracts to reflect both situations and managed to apply them properly. Two examples then,

• Opted in, you will be paid by the agency regardless, opted out you won't be. Ergo, opted-in you carry no financial risk, any such risk being carried by a 3rd party on your behalf, and so clearly you cannot be in business on your own account. Ergo you are a disguised employee. Ergo you are firmly and demonstrably liable to be taxed under IR35.

• Opted in, you cannot be held responsible for the quality of your work and are not obligated to repair errors at your own cost. That kills the IBOYA test again and lo, you are caught by IR35.

There are others. The decision is not an IR35 pointer in either direction, the contractual obligations that result most definitely are.

On your first point above. If recruiters insist on guarantees of client fees before they will introduce policies to contractors and pay them upfront, does that mean you are not in business on your own account either.

This is not a pointer to being inside IR35. The work conditions on the end-client site is what the IR are interested in because it is day to day control a contractor is that determines IR35 compliance. The IR are already aware that recruiters do not manage or control the work on contractors and can't be deemed our employer in kind. Even temps who are paid directly under PAYE by the employment business aren't viewed as such if they've worked on site for over a year. The end-client doesn't pay us they pay you. Therefore the inside IR35 pointer that we are not taking risk by being guaranteed payment by the client becomes completely irrelevant when they aren't our client anyway and nor are you.

[malvolio]

Believe me, they aren't, any more than I am. If anything they are slowly dragging the agencies kicking and screaming into the 21st century, but it takes a while and there are not going to be any spectacular moments.

Our denny is a clever guy but he has a few blind spots. This is his biggest.

[super]

Fat lot of good the PGC are when they're clearly in the pockets of agencies.

What makes you say that? I'm not having a go at you -- just genuinely interested in why this is. Thanks.

[Mustang]

Final result

I am glad my original post prompted some lively debate and, possibly, a new business model!!

The final outcome, based on comments here, was that I supplied the information that AMS wanted. I checked the opt in/opt out issue and realsied that I had already notified them in a previous email, relating to another position with the same client a few months prior, that I wished to opt out. That was still valid in this engagement. I didn't however sign their form since it was too convoluted and so I sent them my own version based on PCG's recommended wording. They were happy with that.

The contract was issued and I had it reviewed by Bauer and Cottrell. They requested some contract ammendments which AMS duly agreed to and I started onsite this week. A couple of points to mention: -

1) AMS were surprised to find out that I wanted to wait until I had the final contract before getting it reviewed. They had given me a 'template' and expected that to be reviewed. When I did get the final version it had my registered address completely wrong!!

2) The staff at B&C were very friendly and did a great job - I can highly recommend them.

3) Although I have read some negative comments about them, AMS do seem to have recognised the need for IR35 protection for contractors and seem to have things in place to minimise the impacts (at least when dealing with this client).

Bottom line: I am happy and back in harness again!

[Denny]

Strange that I have no bother going direct with at least 3 of the top ten ftse100. So I guess its down to relationships really and nothing to do with agents and preferred recruitment supplier lists.

Its just that you haven't put in 8 years of work building relationships with these guys whilst a permie and then continuing them as a business director.

No I think its down the type of skills set you have and how long you are on recruiter sourced projects that enable you to build these relationships. In my field, roles don't last that long. If you've been permie then, of course, things are going to be easier for you if you already had a ready made contact list.

[boredsenseless]

As I've said before, the only reason I use employment businesses to market myself is because my field and the organisations that need my services are all large FTSE100s and government departments who insist on recruiting through employment businesses. I do have private clients but could never get a decent income from using them alone.

Strange that I have no bother going direct with at least 3 of the top ten ftse100. So I guess its down to relationships really and nothing to do with agents and preferred recruitment supplier lists.

Its just that you haven't put in 8 years of work building relationships with these guys whilst a permie and then continuing them as a business director.

Its a mindset thing, if you think like a business then you'll get through the door, if you think like a contractor you never will witholut an agent by your side.

BTW - Dodgy - although you make a cool 1/2 million out of the plan as described it would still makes financial sense for most contractors. If they could ever get over the heartache of writing a cheque directly to you (which if they are smart they'll realise they already do inadvertently anyway)!

I'm not having a go Denny - just putting the other side across, I happen to like agents - they tend to find me good people when I need to subcontract stuff so I'll let them go on doing what they want to do if they leave me alone, and I promise to leave them alone also

[malvolio]

What we also need is information about who is hiring and what they are looking for to be available much more in the public domain.. that is where this site could come in by researching the market

You could always talk to the people at Skillfair...

[DodgyAgent]

OK, let's do it your way. Client pays 400 a day, you take 15% so the contractor gets £340. Over 13 weeks you then get (£60 x 5 x 13) = £3900. However, 5% of £340 a day for invoice factoring is £17, so take off (£17 x 5 x 13) = £1105. £3900 - £1105 = £2795. Ay thang yew!

I think I was being generous with £3k...

I reckon that I could handle 50 contractors with say specialist skills. I get an exclusive subject to finding you work; I link in to PSLs with requirements for my specialist "babes" and I take say 10K per year from each; I know their strenghts I know how good they are, I know their sexual preferences and what they eat and who they blow I know everything about them. No agencies, I am their exclusive agent!

£500 k per year subject to them getting their minimum pay plus bonuses for over and above earnings and penalties if they have to find work through other means. Let the managing agents payroll them (if they desire)... I think we are onto a winner here malvolio.

What we also need is information about who is hiring and what they are looking for to be available much more in the public domain.. that is where this site could come in by researching the market

[malvolio]

Quite right, victims they may be but they can be quite cute when they want to

OK, let's do it your way. Client pays 400 a day, you take 15% so the contractor gets £340. Over 13 weeks you then get (£60 x 5 x 13) = £3900. However, 5% of £340 a day for invoice factoring is £17, so take off (£17 x 5 x 13) = £1105. £3900 - £1105 = £2795. Ay thang yew!

I think I was being generous with £3k...

[DodgyAgent]

I never used the word victim but it is true we are readily exploited and abused by the current recruitment model and it also true that too many contractors are their own worst enemy because they've allowed this situation to occur by not taking action or solidarity to form a union to change the current set up. Fat lot of good the PGC are when they're clearly in the pockets of agencies.

The system doesn't work well either. If contractors were so satisfied with the way the model currently works, then why is the recruitment industry so despised by so many? Why are clients so dissatisfied with the quality of candidates they get so often? Why aren't they prepared to pay for recruiter services? Why is it that recruiters employ every dodgy solicitor or legal consultancy out there to try and stitch contractors up with false information on IR35, terms and conditions that dump all the risks onto them? It all very well saying we're all highly paid experts - but let's examine the facts a bit closer shall we?

FACT: Contractors are only highly paid when they're on high rates. Fact. Some contractors are merely paid pro-rate salary rates but still have the same terms and conditions that apply to all contractors.

FACT: Contractors are only highly paid when they're in work. If the work is not there, then the rates aren't there either. What good is it for a contractor to be on £300 a day for 6 months and then find themselves out of work for another three because nothing else comes up or else they spend got knows how many times going to futile role interviews when the client hasn't even budgeted for the roles supposedly on offer? That makes it far less than £300 per day in the end. Contractors can only judge their fee rates according to what they make overall in an entire year.

FACT: These so called high rates, as you call them, aren't so high when you consider that we have no employment rights, no pension, no sick pay, are subject to economic fluctuations more than permie counterparts and so on and can be laid off on a whim for the stupidist of reasons.

Oh I forgot! THE MODEL DOES WORK. The market decides, the market chooses, the market judges. That's why you're all still here. Hmmmm..

Hello market, how are you today? Did you have a nice weekend?

What a Bellend

[DodgyAgent]

Thats 15% mark up not margin - so 3412 isn’t really 15% -trying to do us agents out of money again!!! we have to put food on tables as well you know!

Quite right, victims they may be but they can be quite cute when they want to

[malvolio]

by not taking action or solidarity to form a union to change the current set up. Fat lot of good the PGC are when they're clearly in the pockets of agencies

I can think of around 12,000 people who would dispute that assertion quite strongly. Feel free to complain nobody's doing anything, but get the facts straight first. Or do you think the PCG is merely an insurance agency?

[Mordac]

>to form a union to change the current set up

Denny, shut the f**k up. You're embarrassing. If you want to join a union, go and become a permie in the public sector. I don't ever want to see that word on this BB again. Even in jest.

[Denny]

Doesnt that tell you something? For example:

Clients are not interested in your ego and any complaints that you may have surrounding your status. This is why the system works.
They are not interested in arguing the toss over whether you think your travel expenses should be paid.

Denny your whole default attitude is that contractors are somehow "victims" .
Well I am afraid that you are not victims. You are highly paid so-called experts who carry out their work and bear no reponsibility for the quality of that work. I can think of far more deserving groups of people who have stronger claims to being victims (us recruitment agents for one). I am also quite sure that your fellow contractors would be dismayed at the thought of themselves being portrayed as such.

I never used the word victim but it is true we are readily exploited and abused by the current recruitment model and it also true that too many contractors are their own worst enemy because they've allowed this situation to occur by not taking action or solidarity to form a union to change the current set up. Fat lot of good the PGC are when they're clearly in the pockets of agencies.

The system doesn't work well either. If contractors were so satisfied with the way the model currently works, then why is the recruitment industry so despised by so many? Why are clients so dissatisfied with the quality of candidates they get so often? Why aren't they prepared to pay for recruiter services? Why is it that recruiters employ every dodgy solicitor or legal consultancy out there to try and stitch contractors up with false information on IR35, terms and conditions that dump all the risks onto them? It all very well saying we're all highly paid experts - but let's examine the facts a bit closer shall we?

FACT: Contractors are only highly paid when they're on high rates. Fact. Some contractors are merely paid pro-rate salary rates but still have the same terms and conditions that apply to all contractors.

FACT: Contractors are only highly paid when they're in work. If the work is not there, then the rates aren't there either. What good is it for a contractor to be on £300 a day for 6 months and then find themselves out of work for another three because nothing else comes up or else they spend got knows how many times going to futile role interviews when the client hasn't even budgeted for the roles supposedly on offer? That makes it far less than £300 per day in the end. Contractors can only judge their fee rates according to what they make overall in an entire year.

FACT: These so called high rates, as you call them, aren't so high when you consider that we have no employment rights, no pension, no sick pay, are subject to economic fluctuations more than permie counterparts and so on and can be laid off on a whim for the stupidist of reasons.

Oh I forgot! THE MODEL DOES WORK. The market decides, the market chooses, the market judges. That's why you're all still here. Hmmmm..

Hello market, how are you today? Did you have a nice weekend?