Reply to: Choice Between Contracts - Advice Needed

[lukemg]

I am liking this less and less, penny pinching consultancy no doubt creaming a big margin off the top. They won't be shy in wielding the axe if things go a bit astray, regardless of who's fault it is.
I would stay local, that job could go on for years, the other one sounds like a route march no internal team wants to touch.
The key thing is that you have a contract in the bag, that you are likely to mess up if you walk off, will they want you back later ? If the new place are that keen, I would ask for an outstanding rate that I could not turn down and if they say no, I have lost nothing.
Don't get carried away with the vanity of them 'wanting' you, they will have done a calculation of your expected rate demands and ability and calculated you can do the job and they can still score big money off the top.

[lje]

Personally I would push for option 2) but I'd call it an inclusive flat rate that they wont need to pay a penny more than.
3) could work I guess but with conditions. Remember that more than one trip to london during the week will affect your expenses significantly.

Also, they need to be on the back foot. Do they know about your other contract option, and that their own offer doesn't match this after expenses. They need to know your seriousness of saying 'no' to them on financial grounds.

They sound very cheeky by trying to avoid paying reasonable costs to get a trusted person in to do a proper job? Maybe they even refuse to pay their employees expenses

I've put forward the 3 options now so I just need to see what their reaction is. I personally prefer option 3 as I think it may mean that I end up spending more time at home, which I'd like to do. The London rate is high enough that I wouldn't be out of pocket if I had to make a couple of day trips in a week.

The only question with option 3 is what I would charge when I was out of the country. I'd probably need to visit Asia, the US and Europe. They've already agreed that they would pay expenses for those trips but I'd need to decide whether the 'discounted' at home rate would be appropriate or not. I don't need to worry about this yet though - until I've heard back on whether they are interested in any of the options I've put forward.

They know about my current contract. I've been talking to them since around January and they've been keeping in contact with me about potential work. They know my current rate and who it's with and how long the work is likely to be for.

They are very checky when it comes to spending money! They do pay their permies expenses - but they don't pay them much in the way of salary. They have also been telling me that I can have a permie job with them if I want to but I always politely decline that offer...

[lje]

Do you have any kind of personal social life locally ? If you do then its going to be more than disrupted, it will pretty much disappear when you miss nights out as "the train was late "/ too darned tired from commuting to go out / staying extra nights to make up for travel disruption on downward journey /people arrange things & assume you wont make it as you are in London ( even tho you might be back home that night / day / next day ) . If you were thinking of doing any local evening courses you wont be able to commit to them as you wont be sure which nights you can be back or you will pay and end up missing a chunk of evenings .
You still have to - presumably - run a home where you live so still need shopping / post opening / correspondence answering and so on. Doesnt sound like much but its easy to think "do that tomorrow " and then several weeks have gone by before you even open the Bills/letters.
So if you can stand the disruption on top of the challenge of the new role then go for the new role for the experience & not so much for the money .
If you dont really want the disruption and its all comfortable where you are then plod on and keep invoicing while focusing on other stuff that interests you and having the time to do so .

I do have quite an active social life which I don't want to disrupt. I am very interested in the new role though - not only for its challenge but for the type of work I'd be able to get afterwards - hopefully more locally. I've put forward some options to them now and I'm going to leave it up to them. If they accept one of my options I'll do the role and if they don't I'll stick doing what I'm doing now.

<edit>Oh - and I should have said that I'll be leaving hubby at home so he'll be able to sort out all of the household bills / post etc!</edit>

[lje]

4) Lower daily rate at home; higher daily rate plus expenses when away.

That way, they have an incentive for you to be at home rather than being away.

I don't think they're going to go for the extra expenses thing as it makes their calculations difficult (!) but in my option 3 the rate in London is much higher than the rate at home (on which I've given them a 'discount') - this will cover travel and also give me a bit of extra as compensation for being away. This is my favourite option as I want to be working from home as much as possible...

[CheeseSlice]

I know they prefer me. They've worked with me before and know I could just go in and get the job done and that they'd have a very happy client. If they don't go with me they're going to need to advertise and recruit which would take time.

They have now agreed the charge with the end client so there's less room than there might otherwise be. However, I'm sure they're allowing themselves a nice margin.

I'm thinking of suggesting 3 alternatives:

1) Standard daily rate (a little higher than they are currently offering) plus expenses (which they are not currently offering). This is what I went back to them with last time.

2) Standard daily rate + fixed daily amount and I will cover all of my travel costs irrespective of how much time I end up spending 'down there'.

3) Daily rate for at home (lower than they are currently offering but higher than current role) and a different daily rate when in London (higher than they are offering) and I would cover the travel costs. This would have the advantage of compensating me for travel and encouraging them to let me work from home as often as possible...

Personally I would push for option 2) but I'd call it an inclusive flat rate that they wont need to pay a penny more than.
3) could work I guess but with conditions. Remember that more than one trip to london during the week will affect your expenses significantly.

Also, they need to be on the back foot. Do they know about your other contract option, and that their own offer doesn't match this after expenses. They need to know your seriousness of saying 'no' to them on financial grounds.

They sound very cheeky by trying to avoid paying reasonable costs to get a trusted person in to do a proper job? Maybe they even refuse to pay their employees expenses

[rpgpgmr1]

Do you have any kind of personal social life locally ? If you do then its going to be more than disrupted, it will pretty much disappear when you miss nights out as "the train was late "/ too darned tired from commuting to go out / staying extra nights to make up for travel disruption on downward journey /people arrange things & assume you wont make it as you are in London ( even tho you might be back home that night / day / next day ) . If you were thinking of doing any local evening courses you wont be able to commit to them as you wont be sure which nights you can be back or you will pay and end up missing a chunk of evenings .
You still have to - presumably - run a home where you live so still need shopping / post opening / correspondence answering and so on. Doesnt sound like much but its easy to think "do that tomorrow " and then several weeks have gone by before you even open the Bills/letters.
So if you can stand the disruption on top of the challenge of the new role then go for the new role for the experience & not so much for the money .
If you dont really want the disruption and its all comfortable where you are then plod on and keep invoicing while focusing on other stuff that interests you and having the time to do so .

[TheFaQQer]

I know they prefer me. They've worked with me before and know I could just go in and get the job done and that they'd have a very happy client. If they don't go with me they're going to need to advertise and recruit which would take time.

They have now agreed the charge with the end client so there's less room than there might otherwise be. However, I'm sure they're allowing themselves a nice margin.

I'm thinking of suggesting 3 alternatives:

1) Standard daily rate (a little higher than they are currently offering) plus expenses (which they are not currently offering). This is what I went back to them with last time.

2) Standard daily rate + fixed daily amount and I will cover all of my travel costs irrespective of how much time I end up spending 'down there'.

3) Daily rate for at home (lower than they are currently offering but higher than current role) and a different daily rate when in London (higher than they are offering) and I would cover the travel costs. This would have the advantage of compensating me for travel and encouraging them to let me work from home as often as possible...

4) Lower daily rate at home; higher daily rate plus expenses when away.

That way, they have an incentive for you to be at home rather than being away.

[lje]

If you know they need you (or just really prefer you), and can't get another ten-a-penny person to do it, you need to show more control over your rate. If they dont want to pay the amount it will actually cost you (i.e. what you quote), then you should be saying you can't do it for that little, and perhaps say you can only do X days in the city instead of Y (if any at all).

If they're just recharging you, then they should pay. Unless of course they've already done their deal with their customer and agreed the overall price for the project and therefore your rate. Then it'll be down to whether they'll give up some of their margin to get you in. I actually had a rate dispute at the last minute, after their deal was done and they still gave in an paid.

One thing I should point out is that I never provided my breakdown of costs to my client as you can't always predict what hotels will be available and at what rates. These are not materials that they are receiving so you have every right not to disclose them - they'll only nit-pick at them anyway.

I know they prefer me. They've worked with me before and know I could just go in and get the job done and that they'd have a very happy client. If they don't go with me they're going to need to advertise and recruit which would take time.

They have now agreed the charge with the end client so there's less room than there might otherwise be. However, I'm sure they're allowing themselves a nice margin.

I'm thinking of suggesting 3 alternatives:

1) Standard daily rate (a little higher than they are currently offering) plus expenses (which they are not currently offering). This is what I went back to them with last time.

2) Standard daily rate + fixed daily amount and I will cover all of my travel costs irrespective of how much time I end up spending 'down there'.

3) Daily rate for at home (lower than they are currently offering but higher than current role) and a different daily rate when in London (higher than they are offering) and I would cover the travel costs. This would have the advantage of compensating me for travel and encouraging them to let me work from home as often as possible...

[CheeseSlice]

My current contract is direct. The potential contract is through a consultancy. They contacted me and offered me the role because I have worked with them before. There has been one round of negotiation already - and the rate has been increased (although from a laughably low rate to be honest). I know they are keen to get me involved but they are also notoriously tight.

I might put together a few options like you suggest and send it through to the consultancy.

If you know they need you (or just really prefer you), and can't get another ten-a-penny person to do it, you need to show more control over your rate. If they dont want to pay the amount it will actually cost you (i.e. what you quote), then you should be saying you can't do it for that little, and perhaps say you can only do X days in the city instead of Y (if any at all).

If they're just recharging you, then they should pay. Unless of course they've already done their deal with their customer and agreed the overall price for the project and therefore your rate. Then it'll be down to whether they'll give up some of their margin to get you in. I actually had a rate dispute at the last minute, after their deal was done and they still gave in an paid (mine was through a consultancy also).

One thing I should point out is that I never provided my breakdown of costs to my client as you can't always predict what hotels will be available and at what rates. These are not materials that they are receiving so you have every right not to disclose them - they'll only nit-pick at them anyway.

[lje]

Arghhhh Get thee'sen and thee shandy drinking laa laa ways back darn sarth then. Tek yon job n bugger off 'ome

But then I wouldn't be able to enjoy myself by upsetting all of the locals... A girl has got to have her fun.

[northernladuk]

Thanks northenladuk - but I'm one of those scummy southerners who lives in the north just to annoy the locals (especially my husband...)!

Arghhhh Get thee'sen and thee shandy drinking laa laa ways back darn sarth then. Tek yon job n bugger off 'ome

[lje]

They want you, so they should 'hopefully' be open to negotiate. I would draw up a budget based on current rate, and calc the new rate you would need to get equivalent once all costs taken out.
Are you even going through an agent or will this be direct?

I have just completed a direct contract where I had to sign up to an uncertain amount of time away from home. Client also didn't want me to bill through itemised expenses for hotels, food or travel, as this allowed them to cap costs and keep the pricing simple for their customer. My approach was to build a rate based on a worst case scenario, and then to give them several options by trimming down days spent away.

Once the option they wanted was agreed (full flexibility / max option), I put the terms of the arrangements, avg number of full round trips per week and max nights away into the contract.

That was the simplest way to reach an agreement when they didn't know what they wanted, and it worked out very well for me on the weeks when I could work more days close to home

My current contract is direct. The potential contract is through a consultancy. They contacted me and offered me the role because I have worked with them before. There has been one round of negotiation already - and the rate has been increased (although from a laughably low rate to be honest). I know they are keen to get me involved but they are also notoriously tight.

I might put together a few options like you suggest and send it through to the consultancy.

[lje]

and thee can stay aroun't Yurkshire folk who speak proper like what thee does....

Thanks northenladuk - but I'm one of those scummy southerners who lives in the north just to annoy the locals (especially my husband...)!

[CheeseSlice]

The pay is not good. It's more than I'm on at the moment but I would need to pay for the train and hotels or an appartment

They want you, so they should 'hopefully' be open to negotiate. I would draw up a budget based on current rate, and calc the new rate you would need to get equivalent once all costs taken out.
Are you even going through an agent or will this be direct?

I have just completed a direct contract where I had to sign up to an uncertain amount of time away from home. Client also didn't want me to bill through itemised expenses for hotels, food or travel, as this allowed them to cap costs and keep the pricing simple for their customer. My approach was to build a rate based on a worst case scenario, and then to give them several options by trimming down days spent away.

Once the option they wanted was agreed (full flexibility / max option), I put the terms of the arrangements, avg number of full round trips per week and max nights away into the contract.

That was the simplest way to reach an agreement when they didn't know what they wanted, and it worked out very well for me on the weeks when I could work more days close to home

[northernladuk]

and thee can stay aroun't Yurkshire folk who speak proper like what thee does....