Hard facts about Project and Programme Management roles

[Wanderer]

tits up in their projects

If you are going to have a PM, then a nice pair of tits would probably be the main thing I would look for. That way things still look good when it goes tits up.

Most of the PMs I've worked with have been rubbish, some of them dangerously bad and just went around pissing everyone off. A few have been very good, methodical, good at networking and getting to know the right people to get the job done.

I think PM roles are oversubscribed because they pay a fortune and anyone can try and bluff their way into them. With a hard core techie role you can be questioned and it's obvious if you don't have the skills. A good PM is much harder to spot at an interview...

[norrahe]

I never bothered with the ISEB route as it never factored for me as a BA, but I did get asked for Prince2 experience even as a BA so went and got the practitoner cert. I've since moved on to PM but worked my way up to it and got relevant experience.

But there are quite a few headless chickens out there who are just power mad loons, who stick their head in the sand at the sight of anything going tits up in their projects and blame the whole team.

[al_cam]

Which is why you need the certificates to differentiate yourself from the wannabes (says cojak ISEB BA certs, currently on an ITIL V3 Expert course...)

Did that, but employers eventually realise certificates aren't worth the paper they are written on and I see adverts requiring them appearing less and less.

[cojak]

I think this applies to Business Analyts as well. Well this has been my long held view. I may be wrong.

Which is why you need the certificates to differentiate yourself from the wannabes (says cojak ISEB BA certs, currently on an ITIL V3 Expert course...)

[Ilu]

I think people can find an easy way into PM positions, hence why a lot of them are fairly poor in my experience. It's also easy to rephrase prior positions to be Project Management like.

A guy in one of the testing teams at previous client co was a Test Co-ordinator, with no Project Management experience. Some of his colleagues said he was a real PITA and didn't know what he's doing but he was promoted to PM because he wanted a rate rise and only way they could get him the money was to rename his job title

So 'proper' PM's have people like that to compete with. He can't wait to start applying for £500-600 a day positions just based on his contract promotion from £300 a day Test Co-ordinator to PM, with no training or anything.

I think this applies to Business Analyts as well. Well this has been my long held view. I may be wrong.

[stek]

In my experience of working with many PM's is most are tulip, too soft and want to be your friend. The best ones are utter bastards which is why I suspect most on here are PM's....

[badger7579]

The cynical side of me would also suggest it’s in the agent’s best interest to imply a flooded market to keep rates down

[badger7579]

I think its one of those things where the amount of projects you complete and if they were successful or not can speak volumes. Its also is a good indicator if your CV shows repeat work with the same client. Apart from that it’s having a CV that matches the role and/or having previous contacts.

I've got to say that I'm currently looking as my current contract is ending but the market is far more buoyant than 12-18 months ago, it was dead then.

[Not So Wise]

The entry bar for PM's is pretty low as these days it is a pretty generic title that can mean anything. Fact is most so called PM's are really the IT admin staff of old with a fancy title. And because they have been a “PM” elsewhere they think they can be a PM anywhere doing any type of project

Technical roles obviously require people with not so generic, easy to obtain skills, thus less candidates

[al_cam]

As a "proper" PM currently on the bench, this makes depressing reading.
SuperZ hit the nail on the head - on paper, PM'ing is easy - anyone can do it as there are few tangible skills that more technical roles require.
The reality is that (as the constant PM bashing on here testifies), most PM's are very poor at the job without the requisite organisational or people skills. I think you are just naturally good at PM'ing, it isn't a skill that can be learned from a book.

So, how do the real PM's stand out? I'm stumped. Surely recruiters can spot those with a succession of PM contracts from the "CV rebadgers"?
Or is it just a case of getting the cheapest guy for the job?

I feel like returning to developing - no stress for the same money.

Al.

[mobi]

It is true. PM roles receive 3-4 times more CVs compared to technical roles (Java/.NET/Oracle) etc.

[SuperZ]

I think people can find an easy way into PM positions, hence why a lot of them are fairly poor in my experience. It's also easy to rephrase prior positions to be Project Management like.

A guy in one of the testing teams at previous client co was a Test Co-ordinator, with no Project Management experience. Some of his colleagues said he was a real PITA and didn't know what he's doing but he was promoted to PM because he wanted a rate rise and only way they could get him the money was to rename his job title

So 'proper' PM's have people like that to compete with. He can't wait to start applying for £500-600 a day positions just based on his contract promotion from £300 a day Test Co-ordinator to PM, with no training or anything.

[rootsnall]

Just got off the phone to an agent who kindly took the time to run some basic numbers by me after I enquired. I always suspected the numbers were prohibitively bad but even so...

On average if a project management or programme management is advertised they typically get around 600+ applications for the role. I asked if a fair proportion of those where from applicants living overseas (i.e. non UK based) - no was the reply, most (95%) are from the UK.

She also mentioned that in her opinion, project management is by far and away the most competitive market in
the UK at this point in time. As a comparision, a developer position would attract 40-50 applications depending on role/rate/location.

I ascertained that she was being quite upfront and honest, there was little or no motive for her to lie to me as I was not being pushed for any other type of role.

How did it get this bad? These numbers are so badly skewed the probability that you land your next position based on job applications alone is close to zero.

God help us when the inevitable public services cut happens - hell, may as well start my own carpentry services to create custom made benches, there is going to more than enough business.

The more generic the job description the more applications you'll get in this type of market. You'll also be getting a lot of techies rebadging their CVs as they are being squeezed out by outsourcing/offshoring/onshoring. I know plenty of us who have done PM work in the past but have been content as a techie while the money was good.

[ChalkandCheese]

Just got off the phone to an agent who kindly took the time to run some basic numbers by me after I enquired. I always suspected the numbers were prohibitively bad but even so...

On average if a project management or programme management is advertised they typically get around 600+ applications for the role. I asked if a fair proportion of those where from applicants living overseas (i.e. non UK based) - no was the reply, most (95%) are from the UK.

She also mentioned that in her opinion, project management is by far and away the most competitive market in
the UK at this point in time. As a comparision, a developer position would attract 40-50 applications depending on role/rate/location.

I ascertained that she was being quite upfront and honest, there was little or no motive for her to lie to me as I was not being pushed for any other type of role.

How did it get this bad? These numbers are so badly skewed the probability that you land your next position based on job applications alone is close to zero.

God help us when the inevitable public services cut happens - hell, may as well start my own carpentry services to create custom made benches, there is going to more than enough business.