Reply to: Increase in vacancies?

[nomadd]

Most companies are either using their developers to test (bad idea) or offshoring...

..or are like the IB I currently work for and just skip formal testing completely. Just like they skip "architecture" and "design."

Banking - it's what keeps Britain Great.

Nomadd

[HeadOfTesting]

Again, bold comments in line:

HoT, I appreciate you are in a tough spot and didn't mean to offend you in any way. I am over in the Netherlands and I believe the market situation out here isn't nearly as bad as it seems to be in the UK.

Well that's the lucky thing - I'm not in a tough spot but I'm acknowledging that many people are. I wasn't offended by your post and I agree that the Netherlands seems relatively strong - I get quite a few calls about working out there but my ongoing medical treatment prevents me straying far from London.

I am an experienced test manager (9 years under the belt), and I have worked at program level at my last client, but have taken a more operational role where I am now just to get back into this. It's a drop in rate too, and a longer commute, but these are the kind of sacrifices I feel I need to make in a recession like this. I have always felt that as long as I have a foot in the door at a client site and I prove myself in the original role, more interesting work may subsequently come my way.

I've done all the usual things: dropped rate, broadened geography etc. You're right about getting a shop window for your abilities.

I agree with you that it does not make sense to have multiple CV's out there targeted at different level roles; it seems you are a few steps ahead of me career-wise and I appreciate in a few years time I may no longer want to be as operationally involved as I am now. Because the roles at the program level or above are far and few between I think you need to be able to also sell yourself as a project manager with a testing background at that level, or you put yourself at risk of long periods on the bench.

Test management is undeniably a specialisation of project management with all the relevant elements (stakeholder management, risk management, delivery aspects etc). That said it seems that 99.9% of people outside of testing do indeed deny it. Therefore it is extremely hard to make this transition - even in good market conditions and at the moment when there are loads of unemployed PMs out there, well you know the rest....

I work and save very hard in the good times because I know how bi-modal the demand profile for testing is. As I said I learned my lessons in 2001/2.

As the test market is now firmly moving toward outsourcing I feel there may also be an opportunity there to move into, by either offering a full service solution in co-operation with people you trust in the traditional outsourcing countries or by becoming a specialist at setting up these kinds of test environments for clients (I have seen quite a few initiatives fail because of bad test management on the client side).

I've been very involved in this since 1998 and you're right about the need for high quality management on the client side. It has historically been the case that clients have retained ownership of the test management on their side but increasingly it looks like they're outsourcing it lock, stock and barrel. That said I think it will remain typical for the testing figurehead rold on the client side to be retained. We'll see.

Happy that you don't have the financial worries that usually come with long bench time and appreciate you are trying to help others who may have these problems. I was just throwing you some pointers that may or may not be useful to you in your particular situation.

May I ask what your plan B is? Is it related to testing or something completely different?

I have 2 plans at the moment (and a whole load of other ideas that are at their early stages). One is related to outsourced testing but I can't say any more at this stage and one is an online business but otherwise has nothing to do with IT. 2010 should hopefully be a more interesting year for me.

[XperTest]

HoT, I appreciate you are in a tough spot and didn't mean to offend you in any way. I am over in the Netherlands and I believe the market situation out here isn't nearly as bad as it seems to be in the UK.

I am an experienced test manager (9 years under the belt), and I have worked at program level at my last client, but have taken a more operational role where I am now just to get back into this. It's a drop in rate too, and a longer commute, but these are the kind of sacrifices I feel I need to make in a recession like this. I have always felt that as long as I have a foot in the door at a client site and I prove myself in the original role, more interesting work may subsequently come my way.

I agree with you that it does not make sense to have multiple CV's out there targeted at different level roles; it seems you are a few steps ahead of me career-wise and I appreciate in a few years time I may no longer want to be as operationally involved as I am now. Because the roles at the program level or above are far and few between I think you need to be able to also sell yourself as a project manager with a testing background at that level, or you put yourself at risk of long periods on the bench.

As the test market is now firmly moving toward outsourcing I feel there may also be an opportunity there to move into, by either offering a full service solution in co-operation with people you trust in the traditional outsourcing countries or by becoming a specialist at setting up these kinds of test environments for clients (I have seen quite a few initiatives fail because of bad test management on the client side).

Happy that you don't have the financial worries that usually come with long bench time and appreciate you are trying to help others who may have these problems. I was just throwing you some pointers that may or may not be useful to you in your particular situation.

May I ask what your plan B is? Is it related to testing or something completely different?

[norrahe]

With regards to test jobs even at the non managerial level there is nothing if you have any experience whatsoever.

Mr Norr has been looking since June this year to no avail.

Most companies are either using their developers to test (bad idea) or offshoring, I should know I had to manage one project at current clientco to faciliate the offshoring of their system testing.

Unless you've got your basic iseb and a couple of years under your belt and are willing to take peanuts, then you are sorted. (on a permie level)

If you have 10 years plus experience at a senior level and even if you apply for the lower level jobs you won't get a look in.

It seems as if no one out there wants to shell out the money for experienced individuals.

I'm seeing PM roles out there now on the contract market that seem to be offering BA rates!!!!

[HeadOfTesting]

Bold comments in-line:

Blimey, one full year out in the test manager market seems like a long time to me. I had a contract finish in August and was back to work two months later, including a 3 week break. Others I have spoken to have similar stories; I haven't heard of many being out of work for months on end, let alone over a year.

You and those you have spoken to have been very lucky. Are you a manager or a practitioner?

One thing I have noticed in client organisations however, is that the more senior test manager roles are being filled by internal information analysis or project lead types who the company would have to let go otherwise as the number of projects they can work on has decreased. So essentially, they are replacing experienced contractors with internal newbies (to testing) in order to save costs. This is especially true at the more strategic level, where the actual testing experience becomes less important in their eyes (and as they pay the bills, there is not much point in arguing).

I'm sure you're right. The demand for testing is highly bi-modal. In good times everyone wants a specialist, in bad times firms are happy for the tea lady to do it. I've seen it all before in 2001/2. That said in terms of externally published job ads you will always see that hands-on experience is specified as mandatory for senior test management positions.

Have you considered taking a step down and going back to project level test management or test coordination? I know I would rather be in program or division/corporate level test management position, but these positions won't be around much until this recession is finally over and the internal people can get back to their own jobs, leaving these positions void, or until the internals start to fail massively and the clients become aware they are pennywise poundfoolish, which may take a while.

Of course I have. Most recently I've been working as a 'Head Of Testing'. As soon as I left my last job I started looking at Test Programme Manager roles and project-specific Test Manager roles. There are some key problems here:

- There are vitually no such positions outside of the closed shops I highlighted earlier in this thread.
- When it comes to the crunch clients are (rightly) very cautious about engaging someone who has taken a step down for fear that they'll jump ship as soon as they can. It's incredibly hard to find a client who is comfortable with this. I don't de-tune my CV because I don't want to lose track of what history I have presented to different people. My CV is 100% accurate and that's that. Nice and easy.
- In times like these firms expect senior testers to take on most/all of the test management piece. Again this is quite logical but it makes moving back to project-specific test management very hard.
- Test co-ordination roles are typically hands-on in a technical sense. I've not done that for years and am not in a position to deal with the technical tests that spring up all over the place in these conditions. I'm also really not interested re-learning all the relevant tools etc.

I think you would stand a much better chance at a more operational level. This is not the time for prima donnas,

I'm not a prima donna; I'll clean the toilets if that's what the client wants. But as I've indicated above it's often more about the client' willingness to accept the candidate's humility and other factors in the market's dynamics which heavily limit the scope to step down a level or two.

and I would personally be worried about a one year break in my CV more than anything. I'd rather be in work in a position that I would perhaps not have even considered in a better market and at a crappy rate than to be waiting for that unique position that fits the bill completely but that may be jeopardised by not having been in a relevant working environment for over a year...

Agreed that a CV break is damaging and the longer it gets the more damaging it is. That said I had 15 months out in 2001/2 although the biggest contiguous block on the bench was 9 months so on that measure this is worse. In the current climate there is a lot of understanding - and rightly so. This year I've only had two interviews, both at programme level, one after I'd been off for 7 months and one after 9 months; the CV gap was never mentioned. I also operate a policy of zero tolerance towards interviewers who fail to show both an awareness of external market conditions as well as an appreciation of the impact on job hunting. Also I think the more senior you get the more gaps are tolerated which is logical for various reasons. I'm certainly not looking for the perfect job. My CV gap is also mitigated by the fact that I had major medical treatment over the first 8 months of my gap and that's helped to explain a lot of it away.

To be honest, I'm really not that bothered anyway. During my last contract I'd already decided that I wanted to leave contracting and move towards plan b and that's what I'm doing. My war chest will cover around 20 years assuming I don't do anything too radical to reduce my costs further. I really only look/post on here just out of interest as a veteran of the 2001/2 collapse and to help comfort others that it's not something specific to them - I think this is really important in these times.

My financial position and feeling that my testing career is not unfinished business means that I can take a dispassionate view of the market - but I feel for those who are feeling like I did in 2001/2.

Good luck to all who are looking.

[XperTest]

No. I'm a senior test manager (programme level and above).

Both the quantity and quality of opportunities is shockingly poor imo.

I continue to get calls, of course, but they all come to nothing.

I'll have been benched for 12 months this Friday. I may buy a cake with a candle on it to mark the occasion

Blimey, one full year out in the test manager market seems like a long time to me. I had a contract finish in August and was back to work two months later, including a 3 week break. Others I have spoken to have similar stories; I haven't heard of many being out of work for months on end, let alone over a year.

One thing I have noticed in client organisations however, is that the more senior test manager roles are being filled by internal information analysis or project lead types who the company would have to let go otherwise as the number of projects they can work on has decreased. So essentially, they are replacing experienced contractors with internal newbies (to testing) in order to save costs. This is especially true at the more strategic level, where the actual testing experience becomes less important in their eyes (and as they pay the bills, there is not much point in arguing).

Have you considered taking a step down and going back to project level test management or test coordination? I know I would rather be in program or division/corporate level test management position, but these positions won't be around much until this recession is finally over and the internal people can get back to their own jobs, leaving these positions void, or until the internals start to fail massively and the clients become aware they are pennywise poundfoolish, which may take a while.

I think you would stand a much better chance at a more operational level. This is not the time for prima donnas, and I would personally be worried about a one year break in my CV more than anything. I'd rather be in work in a position that I would perhaps not have even considered in a better market and at a crappy rate than to be waiting for that unique position that fits the bill completely but that may be jeopardised by not having been in a relevant working environment for over a year...

[Soled73]

*Spit* Wash your mouth out now! They are amongst the biggest fishers in town - beware

There is more chance of getting milk from a bull than getting a role via them....

hmm wonder if I've been had. I'm awaiting a reply from one of their agents for a role, but I did see a JD which was an EXACT match for my CV. Been waiting 9 days now.

[mobi]

...Aston Carter...

There is more chance of getting milk from a bull than getting a role via them....

[rsingh]

...Aston Carter...

*Spit* Wash your mouth out now! They are amongst the biggest fishers in town - beware

[swamp]

I had three calls in three days from Aston Carter. Different agent each time, and I think this goes to show that call volumes mean little.

[RichardCranium]

I'll have been benched for 12 months this Friday. I may buy a cake with a candle on it to mark the occasion

What a good idea. I like that. How about getting one of those 2 litre bottles of Liebfraumilch too. Or even Lambrini.

Go on, do it. Treat the anniversary with the contempt it deserves.

[Fred Bloggs]

Not a single call in 3 months now. Unheard of. It's dire.

[HeadOfTesting]

Are you really a tester?

No. I'm a senior test manager (programme level and above).

Both the quantity and quality of opportunities is shockingly poor imo.

I continue to get calls, of course, but they all come to nothing.

I'll have been benched for 12 months this Friday. I may buy a cake with a candle on it to mark the occasion

[Sausage Surprise]

I must admit I'm amazed at how bad the market has been this last year (I'm not saying it was great the previous year btw).

99.9% of all jobs I see advertised are:

* finance
* NHS
* security-cleared

All virtually water-tight closed shops even in normal market conditions.

Luckily for me I learned my lessons in the 2001/2 collapse and so I went in to this with a £300k war chest. On current progress it looks like that's going to take quite a hit.

Good luck to all who are looking.

Are you really a tester? Things have been tough this year and I'm now on the bench (2 weeks) but have had 2 interviews and been put forward for quite a few other roles. The market has definitely picked up in the last 2 months (especially for the time of year).

So I'm still trying to remain positive

[the_duderama]

Luckily for me I learned my lessons in the 2001/2 collapse and so I went in to this with a £300k war chest. On current progress it looks like that's going to take quite a hit.

Good luck to all who are looking.

Nice. I've only got 10K (after tax), but it is enough to last me a year if i'm carefull.