Reply to: Legal Advice - No notice contract?

[RichardCranium]

WTF
erm, is contracting for you? have you thought about working for the local council. It might be steadier.

I never wanted to be a contractor; I was a career permie. When I found myself on the street when LastPermieCo laid off the IT department, I took an awful support contract to pay the bills and spent the next five years trying to get back into permie work. Always the same response: "You're a contractor so we won't shortlist you". Then a few years wondering what the hell to do but still unable to get a permie job. About seven or eight years ago decided to accept that contracting was the only option and so give up applying for permie work.

I have applied for the three or four permie roles that looked perfect for me in that time but always got: "But you're a contractor".

Comments like yours make me wonder WTF I am supposed to do. I have retrained, upskilled and made myself as employable as I can see how. I've done all the research I can think of, sought advice and followed it. And here I sit on the bench - with many others - trying not to get depressed. So I try not to worry during the day and do so in the middle of the night, instead.

For some, in the right fields, contracting is fantastic: for a while. I had six years when I earned really good money. Then the market changes and you can find yourself wondering what happened. When on the up it is easy to call everyone else a loser. Then when you're the one working out how many weeks the war chest will last you get a bit more humble.

Contracting is like sales: when it's good, it's great. When it's bad, it's Hell.

[blacjac]

oh and if I engage the services of a plumber, he/she could (and actually once left) in the middle of the job because he said he couldn't fix it - i.e. was not able to provide the services required, was totally inconvenient, but perfectly acceptable IMO I still had to pay his call out fees.

I don't believe many contractors would just give notice for the heck of it, how many would go through the trouble of finding another contract which entails having to deal with agents , sit through a number of interviews, just for the heck of it. If a contractor leaves, I believe 99% is due to justified reasons, and its not unreasonable for any service provider to do so.

I had a plumber quit on me without finishing the job! Finished it myself in the end.

Never go for the it's good to have no notice ballpats. This is for low skilled muppets. Office temps have this type of clause.

Professional contractors should get a decent notice period or payoff - just like other freelance professionals - sportsman, tv personalities, politicians ...

In either of those cases did the plumber serve you with notice?
Did you have to pay them for their time after they did (one week, 2 weeks, one month)?

There is a difference between working your notice and leaving the contract immediately as you are unable / unwilling to complete the job.......

Notice period = permies or temps.

[BrilloPad]

Anyway, I didn't get the contract until after I started.

What you do that for?

[Mr.Whippy]

This is for low skilled muppets. Office temps have this type of clause.

Utter rubbish, I have no notice period in my contract yet I'm neither low skilled nor a muppet.... I think proof of that is the multiple contract & extension offers from different clients and my rate increasing 20% over the last 12 months despite pretty much everyone else I know in my field having to swallow cuts totalling nearly 25%.

[Turion]

I am on the bench, right now. Have been for four months.

.....A couple of years ago I had been on the bench 9 months.

Been there, done it, washed the t-shirt in a boil wash and f***ed it.

WTF
erm, is contracting for you? have you thought about working for the local council. It might be steadier.

[NotAllThere]

LOL - Reading posts seems to be a lost art. ...

Maybe, but it was a good rant. About a subject that's asked about ever other week.

btw, zamzummim, the plumber analogy is really really tired. Just because you supply services at that level...

Forgetting IR35 for a moment, a notice period for a contractor is a good thing from a business perspective. No notice period is a good thing for the client. The rest is called "negotiation".

I took on four contracts a few years ago. Three were direct, one through an agency. Only the agency one got a notice period. Think about it - it's NOT in the agencies interest either. The directs got at extra £100 a day for their trouble.

[Mr.Whippy]

It's relevant because I am also looking to leave, but don't want the threat of litigation hanging over my head. This surely can't be legal?? One point of note, the agency claims I approved the terms of the contract, but I've never sent them any email/latter/verbal confirmation that I agreed with the terms.

IANAL, but given that you turned up onsite and started work doesnt that imply that you are accepting the T's & C's, despite the fact you've never actually seen them? Personally, I wouldn't turn up until I've seen then contract, had it reviewed and got it signed.... but, that's just me.

I've always seen contracts where the notice was equal on either side. With that being said, I've only had to leave a few, and I've always tried hard not to burn bridges

Only left a few? Out of interest how many of those places have asked you to come back?

its f*** abject misery out there. I've got mad skills, but still took me 2 months and I still had to take a pay cut."

Yes, it is misery out there, perhaps you'd better stay. After all, I checked jobserve for you and there doesnt seem to be much call for "mad skills" in this economic climate.... perhaps make hay while the sun shines there, rather than another 2 months (or more) stint on the bench with a 100% pay cut before the need for "mad skills" picks up?

My current contract has a 5 day notice period from the client but I can't give notice, which has been pretty normal for most of the contracts I've had in the last 3 years. I think asymmetric notice periods are becoming the norm. No problem for me, if the place sucks, I'll just get on with it and provide the service(s) for the duration and not renew.

HTH

[Turion]

I had a plumber quit on me without finishing the job! Finished it myself in the end.

Never go for the it's good to have no notice ballpats. This is for low skilled muppets. Office temps have this type of clause.

Professional contractors should get a decent notice period or payoff - just like other freelance professionals - sportsman, tv personalities, politicians ...

[zamzummim]

oh and if I engage the services of a plumber, he/she could (and actually once left) in the middle of the job because he said he couldn't fix it - i.e. was not able to provide the services required, was totally inconvenient, but perfectly acceptable IMO I still had to pay his call out fees.

I don't believe many contractors would just give notice for the heck of it, how many would go through the trouble of finding another contract which entails having to deal with agents , sit through a number of interviews, just for the heck of it. If a contractor leaves, I believe 99% is due to justified reasons, and its not unreasonable for any service provider to do so.

[zamzummim]

blacjac - I worked for two of the big 4 consultancies, their contracts with their clients Always had notice period in them!!!

Notice period in itself has nothing to do with IR35, its in combination with other terms in the contract - or so am told

[blacjac]

I have had three contracts (in 15 years) come through which have contained no notice clause on my side or a shorter term on their side than mine. When questioned the agency has always said that it helps with IR35(!). Anyway in all cases the client has given notice before the end of the contract so I now take the 'no notice' section to mean that the client will be trouble.

Also after the first fiasco I now make sure that I have the same notice period, just tell the agent and write it onto the contract - they will agree because they want the sale. This saved me last time when the project got cancelled, the client tried to get rid of me immediately but couldn't for the notice period, then restarted the project and asked me to stay on for another 6 months!
BlueElise

This landed me firmley within IR35 and if I didn't pay the extra tax I could be found guilty of tax evasion.


Business contracts should not contain notice periods, employment contracts should.

If you employed the services of a plumber, you would expect them to stay until the job was complete.
If you employed a plumber, then he can leave at any time, after serving the required notice period.

What are you guys? Contractors or Temps?

[Turion]

LOL - Reading posts seems to be a lost art.

I didn't get the contract until after I started. Don't start a gig without a contract? Sure I've never done it before, but when was the last time you were ON the market? It sucks. No really its f*** abject misery out there. I've got mad skills, but still took me 2 months and I still had to take a pay cut.

Funny thing, bills.

Anyway, I suppose I need to get myself some good counsel on this.

Here some good free council. Wanna leave pronto, swine flu is freely available and up to the task. You don't actually have to catch it either. Just use the OMG I don't feel well virtual strain to avoid timing issues. The real version might get you in the end, but you'll be long gone.

[BlueElise]

I have had three contracts (in 15 years) come through which have contained no notice clause on my side or a shorter term on their side than mine. When questioned the agency has always said that it helps with IR35(!). Anyway in all cases the client has given notice before the end of the contract so I now take the 'no notice' section to mean that the client will be trouble.

Also after the first fiasco I now make sure that I have the same notice period, just tell the agent and write it onto the contract - they will agree because they want the sale. This saved me last time when the project got cancelled, the client tried to get rid of me immediately but couldn't for the notice period, then restarted the project and asked me to stay on for another 6 months!

BlueElise

[RichardCranium]

I didn't get the contract until after I started. Don't start a gig without a contract? Sure I've never done it before, but when was the last time you were ON the market?

I am on the bench, right now. Have been for four months.

A couple of years ago I had been on the bench 9 months. I got a gig through Elan but despite it being 2 weeks between acceptance and the start date, the contract didn't come until the afternoon before the gig was due to start.

I read it and it was totally unacceptable.

So I told Elan to wait while I got the contract checked.

The next few days were spent dealing with a contracts lawyer and some bods at Elan. In the end I told them to stick their contract.

I went back on the bench.

Net result? About £1,000 down in contract review fees and hotel accommodation.

Been there, done it, washed the t-shirt in a boil wash and f***ed it.

[RichardCranium]

So, you started without reading the contract.

Get a contract BEFORE you start, fool.

Reading posts seems to be a lost art.

Anyway, I didn't get the contract until after I started.

As you say, reading posts seems to be a lost art.