Reply to: Perm job - asked to pay for training courses attended upon handing in notice

[centurian]

http://www.roydens.co.uk/content03.htm

Seems that it is legal, but firm's must follow certain process and must also be reasonable in certain respects (sliding scale of amount etc.).

Last point is interesting. If they try and take the money from the final salary without the correct permission, then they lose the right to make any claim.

So how watertight are they?

[SuperZ]

*
And finally...

* Ask all the moralising, sanctimonious pr1cks on here who have told you to "pay up" to pay the £4K themselves!

That sentence above is enough to judge you by, we have nothing to do with it, why suggest we pay.

Your other points paint a poor image of your character, suggesting she lies etc...... dont get applying for those roles requiring a high degree of integrity

[chicane]

Can you close of this thread by letting us all know what action you decided to take and any outcome that resulted??

Will do, but you'll need to wait a couple of weeks.

[swamp]

You asked for opinions and got some you didnt like. Stop going on about people being judgemental. If you dont like the answer, dont ask the question.

How does that work?!

Oh, and



don't

[pzz76077]

Thanks again everybody for the vast range of opinions voiced. Lots of food for thought and you've all been helpful in enabling to work out how to move forward.

I'm slightly disappointed at the judgemental nature of many of the posts, but with hindsight perhaps it would have been best to provide a bit more background info to help people understand why the situation isn't quite as black and white as it may first appear.

But I guess it's a bit late for that now.

Can you close of this thread by letting us all know what action you decided to take and any outcome that resulted??

PZZ

[BolshieBastard]

I'm slightly disappointed at the judgemental nature of many of the posts, but with hindsight perhaps it would have been best to provide a bit more background info to help people understand why the situation isn't quite as black and white as it may first appear.

But I guess it's a bit late for that now.

You asked for opinions and got some you didnt like. Stop going on about people being judgemental. If you dont like the answer, dont ask the question.

Its as clear as ******* day that your missus agreed to the deal but now wants to renage on it.

As I said, far too many people do this nowaday and it seriously needs addressing.

[chicane]

Thanks again everybody for the vast range of opinions voiced. Lots of food for thought and you've all been helpful in enabling to work out how to move forward.

I'm slightly disappointed at the judgemental nature of many of the posts, but with hindsight perhaps it would have been best to provide a bit more background info to help people understand why the situation isn't quite as black and white as it may first appear.

But I guess it's a bit late for that now.

[The Lone Gunman]

Claim she was forced to take the treining or lose her job. She was then forced to sign the agreement or lose her job.
It was this attitude that caused her to look elsewhere and she considers the demand for repayment as extortion.

Or pay the bill as the employer was doing her a favour in advancing her career in the first place. She could have given notice before accepting the training.

[swamp]

* Claim the training course was rubbish and refuse to pay.

* Tell them you want to pay but you haven't got any money. Offer repayment terms of £1 a month, and include an initial cheque.

* Threaten them with an employment tribunal. Any discrimination occurred you can think of?

* Tell them that you (Mrs Chicane) have begun a new career in landscape gardening, say, and the training course no longer gives you any benefit.

* Claim you didn't go on the training course. Further, you resigned in disgrace because you knew you would be sacked for missing the course.

* Ignore them and hope they go away.

* Cut a deal with them. Offer them a grand now or you'll fight them with the above tactics.

And finally...

* Ask all the moralising, sanctimonious pr1cks on here who have told you to "pay up" to pay the £4K themselves!

[minestrone]

The moral of the story is to get sacked.

This obviously is a play. If the company are a bunch of bastards then go for it, with gusto, if they have treated your other half well then you just have to take the hit. Fair as fair.

[pzz76077]

Employer will have claimed training expense against tax.So maybe you should repay via salary sacrifice not post tax.

Any benefit they had e.g. she was MCSE which allowed them to get gold partnership has to be deducted. Any business they got because of her enhanced status e.g. she achieved chartered status and did audited accounts then that is a biz benefit. If her salary failed to increase in line with her colleagues because she had the training may be relevant.

Yes she signed but lets be serious if it didn't give the employer an advantage they wouldn't have done it. Quantifying the benefit is the difficult bit.

Yes she needs to pay something but she may be able to negotiate it down amicably. Don't blot your copy book you may need the employer or your colleagues later. Make an offer of some of the money and see how you go.

Maybe offer an equivalent value of post employment support e.g. limited evening / lunchtime email support for 3 months. They will like the insurance.


So say to them 2 months raw salary = £4k +13% employers NI, I did two audits charged at £4K + £2k which you didn't have capacity for so profit on that = 30% therefore £2k. I applied expertise I learnt on the course and saved £250. I'l provide 35 hours of free email support over 3 months max 12.5 hours a month. = £500 so I owe you £1.25k before tax = ~ £700 take home lost.

They may not like it but they may agree. If you refuse to pay then they will get spiteful. Fallback is they accept pre tax pay.

of course IANAL etc.

The bottom line is that she signed a bit of paper to say that she accepted the Ts&Cs. Who would employ her knowing that she has the character to cause this kind of problem at the next unfortunate employer to hire her??

PZZ

[vetran]

Employer can't benefit

Employer will have claimed training expense against tax.So maybe you should repay via salary sacrifice not post tax.

Any benefit they had e.g. she was MCSE which allowed them to get gold partnership has to be deducted. Any business they got because of her enhanced status e.g. she achieved chartered status and did audited accounts then that is a biz benefit. If her salary failed to increase in line with her colleagues because she had the training may be relevant.

Yes she signed but lets be serious if it didn't give the employer an advantage they wouldn't have done it. Quantifying the benefit is the difficult bit.

Yes she needs to pay something but she may be able to negotiate it down amicably. Don't blot your copy book you may need the employer or your colleagues later. Make an offer of some of the money and see how you go.

Maybe offer an equivalent value of post employment support e.g. limited evening / lunchtime email support for 3 months. They will like the insurance.


So say to them 2 months raw salary = £4k +13% employers NI, I did two audits charged at £4K + £2k which you didn't have capacity for so profit on that = 30% therefore £2k. I applied expertise I learnt on the course and saved £250. I'l provide 35 hours of free email support over 3 months max 12.5 hours a month. = £500 so I owe you £1.25k before tax = ~ £700 take home lost.

They may not like it but they may agree. If you refuse to pay then they will get spiteful. Fallback is they accept pre tax pay.

of course IANAL etc.

[pzz76077]

Not sure that employment law has much to do with this.

It looks like a clear example of offer and acceptance under contract law. Your better half was offered training on the condition that she stayed with the co for a certain amount of time and she signed to say that she accepted these terms.

That said there are several ways that you could mitigate the issue:

Elect to work part time (1 day a week say) as is her right. Then leave after the contracted period.

Get a quack to sign her off on long term medical sick leave. Depending on her employment contract she could expect to be paid all of her outstanding salary and then sick pay for six months till they make her redundant on the grounds that she can no longer do the job.

Withdraw her notice and just dont go back in. They will sack her sooner or later.

You may want to carefully consider what impact any action you take will have on your pension entitlement. Also what impact your action will have on your wifes future employability - forget references, and expect a black mark against her name if it goes to court- not good in financial or government clearance situations IMO.


Morally, Id agree with the other posters here - live up to your responsibilities and pay up. Not clearing your financial obligations always ends in tears and paints a negative image of your household that will haunt your family for decades down the line.



Someone remind me never to take a check from this couple.

PZZ

[SuperZ]

Oh ffs! Stop whinging, pay up and shut up. She signed the agreement and now its time for her to keep her side of the deal.

This is the trouble with far too many people in the UK today. They sign an agreement then try and wriggle out of it.

Agreed 1000%.

[BolshieBastard]

Apologies in advance for the vague nature of this post and the general lack of information. I'll try to gain more info if anybody has specific questions.

Mrs. Chicane has just handed in her notice for her permanent job shortly after attending two training courses funded by her employer. She signed a piece of paper for each course stating that she would repay the costs of the course to the company if she left within a certain timescale following attendance of the course.

Her employer has now demanded payment for both courses - a total of four grand. Whilst I acknowledge that she has willingly signed the agreement on both occasions, is there any area of employment law or otherwise that would put her employer on shaky grounds in terms of being able to demand payment from her for these courses?

Also, is the employer required to provide any proof of the costs incurred in order for their demand to be valid - e.g. invoices for the courses?

I know this is an obscure question, but would appreciate any words of wisdom provided by the panel.

Oh ffs! Stop whinging, pay up and shut up. She signed the agreement and now its time for her to keep her side of the deal.

This is the trouble with far too many people in the UK today. They sign an agreement then try and wriggle out of it.