Reply to: Recruitment Agencies in the Netherlands

[AlfredJPruffock]

Other times I've gone up and installed systems, hardware and software, at primarily small software houses so its all been pretty friendly but I also did Cap Gemini in Utrecht which was fine. No meetings, just went in and did the job. Got taken out for beer and meals and still talk with the guys there (even got a big thank you from very senior management when problems occurred even though they were out of support.)

What always amazed them was being a Brit who lived in Germany.

Yes but you were'nt working and living in the NL , they just wanted you to do a specific job repairing their ATM and off you go back home to Germany - Ive lived and worked in NL for over three years which is quite a different matter - you in fact have to have worked and lived in NL to understand their 'culture'.

[Brussels Slumdog]

Not only the Dutch are to blame

The more Dutch you try to speak with your Dutch colleuges the more they will reply in English - then when you stop speaking Dutch after about a year they will complain - why dont you speak Dutch.

But you have to undertand that complaining is central to Dutch culture.

Mind you - Im fluent in German - so I can alway retaliate with that.

I went to school in South Africa so I can read and understand Dutch but only speak basic Dutch due to the fact that they normally reply to me in German or English.

Its not only the Dutch that reply in English. It's normally only the French who don't reply to me in English.

What you have to always keep in mind is that for most Europeans, they require to speak English in order to work in IT.
For most Europeans it's English first then IT, but for us its first IT then Languages.
Yes it's great to be able to speak and understand their Language but normally if we have the IT skills then we don't need the Language.

[darmstadt]

I've worked a few times in Holland and never really come across any of these problems. The first was for a large company in Amsterdam where a software supplier had sold them some software but the pre-sales guy (a German I used to work with) hadn't really explained it thoroughly enough. As the only contractor in Europe to know this product they asked me to do the work. Once I got there and say what a catastrophe it was going to be I sat down with the Dutch techies, then management, and explained what was going to happen and how long it would take and how much it was going to cost them, they were very grateful. The software company weren't

Other times I've gone up and installed systems, hardware and software, at primarily small software houses so its all been pretty friendly but I also did Cap Gemini in Utrecht which was fine. No meetings, just went in and did the job. Got taken out for beer and meals and still talk with the guys there (even got a big thank you from very senior management when problems occurred even though they were out of support.)

What always amazed them was being a Brit who lived in Germany.

[Mich the Tester]

No doubt you will hear -


You ain't much - if you ain't Dutch.

Pride comes before a fall.

Oh - and youre going to love their 'meeting-discussion ' culture ....

Dutch meetings are great; free money if you've mastered the art of sleeping with your eyes open. I'm still trying.

[ribble]

'meeting-discussion ' culture? Elaborate?

[AlfredJPruffock]

No doubt you will hear -


You ain't much - if you ain't Dutch.

Pride comes before a fall.

Oh - and youre going to love their 'meeting-discussion ' culture ....

[Fred Bloggs]

Rule 1; the Dutch know better
Rule 2; you are an ignorant foreigner
Rule 3; in all other situations, refer to rules 1 and 2

The best way to do business with the Dutch is to let them to things their way. When they f**k up, you can then charge them a tulipload of money to solve the problem, always tactfully stating that although their way is usually best, your humble alternative might make their existing approach 'even better'.

[Mich the Tester]

So I guess I'm going to find it quite hard then? My field is Microsoft SQL Server/BI Stack which is not exactly niche....

Dan

Do you do DBA work? Erm, if you can combine that with Oracle DBA work you'll have a chance; lots of DBA depts are being merged that way, and I know that some Oracle DBAs don't want to touch SQL server for some reason. You'll find that the central concepts in Oracle DBs are quite similar; PL/SQL has a little more functionality than Transact SQL, but is very similar. If you have any Oracle (or for that matter DB2) experience, bump that up on your CV; that way you're the all round 'database guru' and you'll stand a good chance.

Having said that, I'm a tester and it's 7 years since I did any hardcore DBA work, so what I'm saying might be outdated.

[Mich the Tester]

Isn't that true! They also always need to be in charge, take all the credit and call upon the British guys when there's-

Overtime to be worked or
Nightshifts or
Anything remotely risky to be done or
Involves possibly taking any responsibility or
Getting hands dirty- That's what Turks are for

Apart from that, working there's a pleasure. As a staff guy I worked in Holland a lot. As a contractor, I find the market pretty much sewn up by established hard core expat community.

I avoid Holland now.

Rule 1; the Dutch know better
Rule 2; you are an ignorant foreigner
Rule 3; in all other situations, refer to rules 1 and 2

The best way to do business with the Dutch is to let them to things their way. When they f**k up, you can then charge them a tulipload of money to solve the problem, always tactfully stating that although their way is usually best, your humble alternative might make their existing approach 'even better'.

[ribble]

In good times there are plenty of roles for English speakers in NL, but right now a lot less; lots of Dutch contractors are looking for work, and of course the big insultancies like Crap Gemini and Logicack have sacked thousands of people who are now offering themselves at knock down rates. However if you're very specialised you might get in in the Amsterdam, Den Haag or Rotterdam areas; obviously, try to learn something of the language before you come; it'll always help.

So I guess I'm going to find it quite hard then? My field is Microsoft SQL Server/BI Stack which is not exactly niche....

Dan

[Fred Bloggs]

moaning, whingeing, blaming other people and dodging responsibility while claiming to be the best thing since sliced bread are central to the culture of the West of the Netherlands.

Isn't that true! They also always need to be in charge, take all the credit and call upon the British guys when there's-

Overtime to be worked or
Nightshifts or
Anything remotely risky to be done or
Involves possibly taking any responsibility or
Getting hands dirty- That's what Turks are for

Apart from that, working there's a pleasure. As a staff guy I worked in Holland a lot. As a contractor, I find the market pretty much sewn up by established hard core expat community.

I avoid Holland now.

[padinka]

Try...

YER (http://www.yer.nl/) - Richard van 't Schip

SOURCE (http://www.source.nl/) - Janaiki Arwanitidis

Had good experience with both - as agencies and also recently as suppliers.

Be careful though, most of the UK agencies have branches here, complete with their usual 'service' levels & huge margins. Avoid unless you have no other choice...

Padinka

[Mich the Tester]

The more Dutch you try to speak with your Dutch colleuges the more they will reply in English - then when you stop speaking Dutch after about a year they will complain - why dont you speak Dutch.

But you have to undertand that complaining is central to Dutch culture.

Mind you - Im fluent in German - so I can alway retaliate with that.

moaning, whingeing, blaming other people and dodging responsibility while claiming to be the best thing since sliced bread are central to the culture of the West of the Netherlands; get out to the north east or south east and you'll find people to be much less arrogant and generally much more competent; that's why the A1 motorway that leads from the east to Amsterdam is packed full from east to west on monday mornings and from west to east on friday evenings; a lot of businesses in the west like to employ hard working people from the east, and the people from the east chase the well paid jobs in the west. Of course, the logic of moving head office to a much cheaper and less crowded part of the country with lots of highly educated and motivated people escapes the elite clique of old school tie geniusses that run large Dutch businesses.

[Mich the Tester]

Thanks for that Mich,

I gather your out the at the moment from a previous post.... are you a dutch speaker.. how receptive generally are the dutch to English speaking roles? I'm currently working my way through my Michael Thomas dutch CD though....

Dan

In good times there are plenty of roles for English speakers in NL, but right now a lot less; lots of Dutch contractors are looking for work, and of course the big insultancies like Crap Gemini and Logicack have sacked thousands of people who are now offering themselves at knock down rates. However if you're very specialised you might get in in the Amsterdam, Den Haag or Rotterdam areas; obviously, try to learn something of the language before you come; it'll always help.

[AlfredJPruffock]

Thanks for that Mich,

I gather your out the at the moment from a previous post.... are you a dutch speaker.. how receptive generally are the dutch to English speaking roles? I'm currently working my way through my Michael Thomas dutch CD though....

Dan

The more Dutch you try to speak with your Dutch colleuges the more they will reply in English - then when you stop speaking Dutch after about a year they will complain - why dont you speak Dutch.

But you have to undertand that complaining is central to Dutch culture.

Mind you - Im fluent in German - so I can alway retaliate with that.