Reply to: Poor Market or Greedy Agents ??

[tim123]

Tim, Was it the agent that thought it unusual for you to want full and detailed feedback?? That just makes me really angry! Even the client not thinking that this is important is ridiculous.

The client. He was (seemed to be) a 25 year old "manager"

Anyway - my point here, is that you're looking at it the wrong way. The majority of us work to a set margin - we almost certainly work to a minimum margin (mine is 20% but as I've said previously I work a very very niche area, and people pay for my network). The more you get paid, the more we get paid - trust me, we do NOT want you to go in at a lower rate if we can get you a higher one. Note this is not the case in all cases, but given that the only business out there right now is relationship based business (there aren't really any new clients going around) i would guess it applies to over 50%.

The reality is that you are "worth" what someone will pay for you. If that's £4 or £400 per hour, then that is your rate. If you can't get £40, then your rate isn't £40. At the end of the day, if we get you a higher rate, and make the same percentage margin, we'd be happy - ultimately you stay longer, don't look around as much, and are less likely to shaft us by leaving the client in the lurch.

Cheers
TAV

I don't agree, but I can't be bothered to take it point by point

thanks for your reply

tim

[The Agents View]

Following up on this.

I didn't get the job (for reasons that are too complicated to explain here) but I phoned the guy up for proper feedback (which he indicated he thought was a strange thing for someone to want, but I digress!)

During the discussion I made sure that I had gone in at the "right rate" and he informed me that he was looking to pay 33 ph to the agent!

This, in a market, that would normally command 40 ph to me. So, if I hadn't agreed to the request from the agent to reduced my expectations by 30%, I wouldn't even have got the interview.

Hard times ahead me thinks.

(And before anyone says, It's not worth me moving away for a 3 monther at 28 ph, but as an oldie, I'm worried that if I don't keep some continuity of work I may never get back in again, so it's a necessary loss leader)

tim

Tim, Was it the agent that thought it unusual for you to want full and detailed feedback?? That just makes me really angry! Even the client not thinking that this is important is ridiculous.

Anyway - my point here, is that you're looking at it the wrong way. The majority of us work to a set margin - we almost certainly work to a minimum margin (mine is 20% but as I've said previously I work a very very niche area, and people pay for my network). The more you get paid, the more we get paid - trust me, we do NOT want you to go in at a lower rate if we can get you a higher one. Note this is not the case in all cases, but given that the only business out there right now is relationship based business (there aren't really any new clients going around) i would guess it applies to over 50%.

The reality is that you are "worth" what someone will pay for you. If that's £4 or £400 per hour, then that is your rate. If you can't get £40, then your rate isn't £40. At the end of the day, if we get you a higher rate, and make the same percentage margin, we'd be happy - ultimately you stay longer, don't look around as much, and are less likely to shaft us by leaving the client in the lurch.

Cheers
TAV

[ratewhore]

I don't know about renewals, but for new contracts I'm getting asked if I will work for 40% less than "normal".

No problem, but I'll reduce my output by 40% to compensate (Actually, I'm starting from a pretty low bar so that could be difficult!)...

[tim123]

Following up on this.

I didn't get the job (for reasons that are too complicated to explain here) but I phoned the guy up for proper feedback (which he indicated he thought was a strange thing for someone to want, but I digress!)

During the discussion I made sure that I had gone in at the "right rate" and he informed me that he was looking to pay 33 ph to the agent!

This, in a market, that would normally command 40 ph to me. So, if I hadn't agreed to the request from the agent to reduced my expectations by 30%, I wouldn't even have got the interview.

Hard times ahead me thinks.

(And before anyone says, It's not worth me moving away for a 3 monther at 28 ph, but as an oldie, I'm worried that if I don't keep some continuity of work I may never get back in again, so it's a necessary loss leader)

tim

[tim123]

Wrong answer for usual dodgy question. You'll never be offered normal rate with such an answer.

at the moment I'm not being offered anything, so what am I losing?

tim

[Fred Bloggs]

You could always play the same games as the agents.
If you have to provide a quotation pretty much immediately then do so at a low daily rate. Then if offered the contract and after scoping the cost of rental or hotels in that particular area if required to work away from home and after checking the contract then propose a higher rate to cover your extra expenses and or handcuff clause within the contract.

Be prepared to walk away.

If hotels / rental is more expensive than usual then up the rate.
If the agency insists on a handcuff clause within the contract then this is restrictive on your business operation so demand a higher rate.

If the agency is playing games then you can do also but be prepared to walk away if you can afford to do so.

It is all about negotiation.

Generally, I agree with you. However, I have found a distinct lack of willingness to negotiate lately which I guess is simply down to many candidates submitting already a lot cheaper than my proposed rate. I find this mostly the case with overseas work where I guess there is stiff competition from east European and Asian workers.

[ipguy]

It is all about negotiation.

Of course, you can play with the expenses, but the major thing they have a customer, but you haven't. So, you cannot negotiate a lot. It's like democracy. You think that you can decide.

[s2budd]

You could always play the same games as the agents.
If you have to provide a quotation pretty much immediately then do so at a low daily rate. Then if offered the contract and after scoping the cost of rental or hotels in that particular area if required to work away from home and after checking the contract then propose a higher rate to cover your extra expenses and or handcuff clause within the contract.

Be prepared to walk away.

If hotels / rental is more expensive than usual then up the rate.
If the agency insists on a handcuff clause within the contract then this is restrictive on your business operation so demand a higher rate.

If the agency is playing games then you can do also but be prepared to walk away if you can afford to do so.

It is all about negotiation.

[ipguy]

but usually I state a rate and get told its too much with a refusal to negotiate further. I guess this is a sign that there are far more candidates than there used to be for each job?

The truth is the agents try to increase their profit because too many candidates apply. If the client agrees for 15% discount from normal rate, the agents are trying to get 30-40% discount from contractors.

That means that the client could get a better specialist for the same money, but the agency won't give the client such a chance, because it's too greedy.

[Fred Bloggs]

I have noticed a lot more where the question "what rate is being offered?" is met by the reply "what rate do you want?" and a refusal to give a figure. It was sometimes asked previously but now is asked for every gig I get called about. I suspect that indeed, some agents are taking a large slice of what the client "thinks" the contractor is getting. My usual reply to that question is "as much as the client will pay". But it isn't working so well at the moment.

I have noticed that almost every job overseas now asks the candidate to propose a rate. It wouldn't be so bad if there were negotiations over the rate but usually I state a rate and get told its too much with a refusal to negotiate further. I guess this is a sign that there are far more candidates than there used to be for each job?

[minestrone]

I was working for a financial there, which was still making decent profit, and they tried to pull the 15% drop. Thinking about it today the agent should have resisted more but they were probably tulip scared they would lose the psl for the place.

[BrilloPad]

Generally there are less jobs about so rates will go down. But it wont affect every sector so pimps will try it on for the other sectors.

Same happen in early nineties : rates went down. A friend was doing oracle : rates were static in that area. His pimp earned 100% markup on his gig!

[BolshieBastard]

In the main, clients will drive down rates due to market conditions being in their favour. Equally, they pay higher rates when the market is in the contractors favour.

As with all things though, some agents will try and drive down the contractor's rates if and when they can.

Given the current market, I'd expect rates are entirely being driven down by clients not having much budget.

Any contractor coming off the back of a contract whether having been on a 'good rate' or not, and, sticks rigidly to their rate expectations, will find themselves potentially on the bench for a long time.

The signs are there. It would imo be foolish to ignore them.

[ipguy]

I don't know about renewals, but for new contracts I'm getting asked if I will work for 40% less than "normal".

I tell them that, in principal, I will but only if it is that reduction which gets me the job.

tim

Wrong answer for usual dodgy question. You'll never be offered normal rate with such an answer.

[tim123]

I don't know about renewals, but for new contracts I'm getting asked if I will work for 40% less than "normal".

I tell them that, in principal, I will but only if it is that reduction which gets me the job.

I'm currently up for one role where I am pretty certain that it is the client who has driven this reduction, and I agreed on the basis that I didn't have all the skills required and would be gaining something from the arrangements.

Now I find out that he really "must have" an exact match yet still wants to pay silly rates. I think that TTP.

tim