Reply to: BA Rates

[boredsenseless]

Yes but the bulk of the sales bit comes in winning the client in the first place. Most comapanies have supplier lists and it is incredibly hard to break into them. The ones that follow the process below generally don't make money. The salesmen and ones who really know their stuff make £100k upwards. These are the guys who don't need a vacancy - they'll find a good contractor and sell him into an organisation. Agreed, most are chumps who are nothing more than administrators but there are some very skilled salesmen out there if you know where to look.

Agreed and usually the chumps you talk to are the juniors of the good ones and they are riding on the back of the other guys ability to get into the end client originally - hence when the numpty places you the other guy also gets a cut.

And so the pyramid grows... or food-chain or whatever you want to call it today

[jonhoops]

Yes but the bulk of the sales bit comes in winning the client in the first place. Most comapanies have supplier lists and it is incredibly hard to break into them. The ones that follow the process below generally don't make money. The salesmen and ones who really know their stuff make £100k upwards. These are the guys who don't need a vacancy - they'll find a good contractor and sell him into an organisation. Agreed, most are chumps who are nothing more than administrators but there are some very skilled salesmen out there if you know where to look.

I don't buy into this 'agents are skilled salesmen' argument. Agreed, some agents are good at selling, but most of the one's I've met aren't. In fact, they are completely feckless.
For most agents their standard process seems to be; receive resource requirement from client. Call some contractors. E-mail across a couple of CVs. Wait for client to respond.

[voron]

I don't buy into this 'agents are skilled salesmen' argument. Agreed, some agents are good at selling, but most of the one's I've met aren't. In fact, they are completely feckless.
For most agents their standard process seems to be; receive resource requirement from client. Call some contractors. E-mail across a couple of CVs. Wait for client to respond.

[tim123]

Yes 12% is low end but to me thats still too high for what agents actually do, any more is extortion in my mind. but likeyou said if you can get away with it ....!

The problem isn't what the agency do for you it's who it is that does it.

It is a salesman and salesmen earn upwards of 100K in some sectors and certainly rarely less than 50 once established.

If you want to use an agency to sell you, you have to pay the guy doing it. you can't expect the guy at the other end of the phone to work for a piddily 1 or 2% of the charge. If this is all that you are giving him, he'll go and work for somebody else, and you'll have an income of zero. Much better 80% of someting, than 100% of nothing.

tim

[jonhaff]

expect 700/day for BA work maybe in Banking/Finance/city but certainly not telecoms and most other industries.
If you are then you are extremely lucky and more an exception than average.
Look at the daily rate guide on this very web site contractoruk and they quote a rate more like 300 as an average. So yes I expect 450. But then again I managed 600 when i went direct, so that just shows the agent fee problem again. If you go through an agent you are likely to get less.

[voron]

Bugger...

Good BA with 5 years plus experience in a relevant business area? more like £750/day +

[jonhoops]

Good BA with 5 years plus experience in a relevant business area? more like £750/day +

And for that you really expect a good Business Analyst do you????

[boredsenseless]

to get this thread back on topic, I would expect to pay a GOOD BA with 8+ yrs at least 400/day if not 450.

And for that you really expect a good Business Analyst do you????

[jonhaff]

to get this thread back on topic, I would expect to pay a GOOD BA with 8+ yrs at least 400/day if not 450.

[jonhoops]

What they are doing is managing your expectations. You are being played. They will always tell you your rate is too high, but they will rarely put you forward if that is the case. They will tell you its too high, so you expect a low offer. Then they say they'll do their best. Then, when the offer comes in, and you're not expecting to get what you want, they will tell you that after bargaining they have secured you the rate you wanted. When in actual fact you were going to get that all along. By doing this, they are preparing for the worst scenario (rate is too low). And when the normal rate offer comes in, you are happy because you didn't expect it in the first case.

When you tell an agent your rate, they will pause, inhale and say "ooh, that's a bit high." Its all very comedy, but nothing terribly sinister.

Yes 12% is low end but to me thats still too high for what agents actually do, any more is extortion in my mind. but likeyou said if you can get away with it ....
the point is in pretty much all the negotiations with agents i have had I state my rate at which point they go oooo too high... but then you find that the client is in fact paying way way more than your starting rate in the first place with the agent trying to take the difference. Yes some clients fix the difference but a lot dont and agents do and will screw you to get more. Its happened to most of us even if you didnt realise !

[jonhaff]

12% is a very good margin well below average...

If you don't like it go and find your own work, as I've said before ask for what you want to be paid for the activity you perform. After that you shouldn't give a flying **** what anyone else can squeeze out through negotiations.

If you get 400 quid for a gig you would have done for 350 and then you find out the agent is getting 600 for you, are you

a) Happy that you are getting 50 quid more than you wanted
b) p155ed that the agent gets 200?

Life's a lot easier if you go with a...

If you find agents are creaming you all the time, then put up your rates, they only take what they can get away with, and they'd rather place someone who can do the job and earn renewals than a tw@t who is only there for 2 months before they have to find him a new role.

Yes 12% is low end but to me thats still too high for what agents actually do, any more is extortion in my mind. but likeyou said if you can get away with it ....
the point is in pretty much all the negotiations with agents i have had I state my rate at which point they go oooo too high... but then you find that the client is in fact paying way way more than your starting rate in the first place with the agent trying to take the difference. Yes some clients fix the difference but a lot dont and agents do and will screw you to get more. Its happened to most of us even if you didnt realise !

[partimer]

risks

Echoing Omen, normal business really. You can be on 40/hr and last 6 months or 30/hr and last years at the client. You have to weigh up the risks, etc. when negotiating your contract.

One thing most people will agree upon is that in a group of similar contractors, the cheapest always seems to last the longest at the client. Going direct removes the extra layer of cost (of the agent) but getting paid like clock work is the only reason I use them. You (well I do anyway) get tired of having to chase the accounts department.

[omen666]

If the Agent is taking too high a margin it can affect the client's perception of you. I have been in the situation where I requested a rate increase and the agent decided to up their margin too.

My relationship with the Project Sponsor suddenly went cold. After a few days I asked him what was wrong and he said he was pissed off with me because I'd asked for such a high increase when I knew he couldn't let me go. I was surprised as I had a good idea of the agents margin, when I spoke to the agent they denied all.

From the state of the project (I was brought in to turn it around) it didn't take a genius (never mind an agent) to understand it was difficult for the client to turn it down.

Anyway the extension came through, but the relationship with the client never really got back to the same. I caught sight of an invoice from the agent and saw why he was annoyed

Needless to say the contract ended after the extension. To this day I am convinced it was the short-sightedness of the agent that took away the potential for a long-term profitable gig.

It still surprises me how many clients get themselves into these positions, but I am not complaining!

[boredsenseless]

12% is a very good margin well below average...

If you don't like it go and find your own work, as I've said before ask for what you want to be paid for the activity you perform. After that you shouldn't give a flying **** what anyone else can squeeze out through negotiations.

If you get 400 quid for a gig you would have done for 350 and then you find out the agent is getting 600 for you, are you

a) Happy that you are getting 50 quid more than you wanted
b) p155ed that the agent gets 200?

Life's a lot easier if you go with a...

If you find agents are creaming you all the time, then put up your rates, they only take what they can get away with, and they'd rather place someone who can do the job and earn renewals than a tw@t who is only there for 2 months before they have to find him a new role.

[Lucifer Box]

When I was working in telecoms, the client told the agent what the margin was going to be (well low).