Reply to: Can't work as no hotels avail near client office

[MPwannadecentincome]

And f you were the client seeking such staff you would likely hear "you must be joking matey, if you have to have the term we will go somewhere else".

Why do you think companies employ "freelance" staff. If they wanted to pay for a perm, they'd be employing a perm.

tim

Here is an example that may help explain what I mean:

A large software house may have 10 people ready to customise an application prior to installation. The client is not choosing between 10 contractors of their own or 10 permies, they are buying expertise from the software house. The software house will not commit 10 people to the work without having protection built in to prevent their revenue recognition from being unreasonably delayed by the client without some form of compensation. Otherwise, you will see more profit warnings from such companies and demands from shareholders to rectify the situation and that is on top of the management having to explain how they allowed the company to get into the situation in the first place where any of the staff were sitting around not working.

And so what if the client says "No" - that is the starting point for a negotiation of the terms and negotiation BTW is not a "take it or leave it" thing its a two way process of coming to an agreement otherwise known as a commercial contract!

[MPwannadecentincome]

surely as you've been a contractor for a period of time you know how to play the workload game. You are telling us that you have nothing wotsoever to do until the client mgr tells you wot to do.

Surely you have something to do and do not rely on the client to tell you everything.

I'm writing a report - when I get to a certain point I need to discuss face to face with the client before proceeding, there is nothing else for me to do in the meantime that is within the scope of the work I deliver!

No-one on earth is gonna let those sort of terms be accepted FFS

Ok thanks for giving me your opinion - I'm new to contracting having worked for software houses and hence the reason for the question in the first place!

[Sockpuppet]

Wow.

Am I the only one that thinks this isn't a major issue and you could have sorted it out. So the client books your hotels and flights for you. Did you put any effort into this at all.

Where is the city and what are the dates, are you saying there is no rooms avail at all.

Not sure how the language differences are a problem. If you can't communicate over phone/video how are you going to comunicate in person.

[tim123]

If I was a big business trying to commit to supply 10 people to a client I would want protection in my contract for ensuring these people are paid for and not want to be exposed to the client saying 'there is no work' for an arbitrary amount of time halfway through without compensation a situation which could in fact lead to termination without incurring any costs / penalty!

And f you were the client seeking such staff you would likely hear "you must be joking matey, if you have to have the term we will go somewhere else".

Why do you think companies employ "freelance" staff. If they wanted to pay for a perm, they'd be employing a perm.

tim

[NotAllThere]

...
Or are us contractors being disadvantaged by IR35 and being prevented from doing this?

Frankly, yes. There are benefits/Activities that non-shareholding employees of companies can enjoy, that we can't without falling foul of the law.

[downsouth]

surely as you've been a contractor for a period of time you know how to play the workload game. You are telling us that you have nothing wotsoever to do until the client mgr tells you wot to do.

Surely you have something to do and do not rely on the client to tell you everything.

No-one on earth is gonna let those sort of terms be accepted FFS

[MPwannadecentincome]

Are you sure that's what you would do as a large company?

or would you say "Thanks for letting me know" and find alternative paid work for your consultants for the duration?

It depends on the relationship the business the business wants with the client, there is no hard and fast rule is there it is upto both sides to agree and recognise their obligations which are then written into contract.

If the "Thanks for letting me know" option is taken that may be the right thing to do but it may take a month to do so and you are paying 10 people still in that time plus you may annoy the client sufficiently for them to never do business with you again.

No difference between big business and contractors, other than IR35 that I can see!

Perhaps I should add that I have the luxury of negotiating directly with my end client as I do not work through agencies!

[blacjac]

Are you sure that's what you would do as a large company?

or would you say "Thanks for letting me know" and find alternative paid work for your consultants for the duration?

[MPwannadecentincome]

Yep that's exactly where you're left, but that's the joy of contracting.



That will put you firmly within IR35; you've just written a MOO clause.

I'd suggest you need to think more as a business than an employee. If one client has not got work available for a period of time that's an ideal opportunity to provide a short term service to an alternative client. Or, if you prefer, an opportunity for YourCo to hold a summit in the Algarve...

OK I'm not an expert on MOO or IR35 but....

If I was a big business trying to commit to supply 10 people to a client I would want protection in my contract for ensuring these people are paid for and not want to be exposed to the client saying 'there is no work' for an arbitrary amount of time halfway through without compensation a situation which could in fact lead to termination without incurring any costs / penalty! In fact I think you will find such business contracts will have a minimum fee or commitment to be paid regardless of the work performed until either the work is completed or the contract terminated.

Or are us contractors being disadvantaged by IR35 and being prevented from doing this?

[Ravello]

On a similar topic though - if the client turned round and said - "all stop everthing is on hold for a week" then where is the poor contracter left - no pay for a week with no compensation?

Yep that's exactly where you're left, but that's the joy of contracting.

Surely all I have to put into the contract is words along the lines of "Where the client is unable to ensure sufficient work is in place or is unable to provide the required means to perform the work at the required place then the client shall pay compensation at the rates...."

That will put you firmly within IR35; you've just written a MOO clause.

I'd suggest you need to think more as a business than an employee. If one client has not got work available for a period of time that's an ideal opportunity to provide a short term service to an alternative client. Or, if you prefer, an opportunity for YourCo to hold a summit in the Algarve...

[Bluebird]

Surely all I have to put into the contract is words along the lines of "Where the client is unable to ensure sufficient work is in place or is unable to provide the required means to perform the work at the required place then the client shall pay compensation at the rates...."

This would be fine if you are an employee and are prepared to pay PAYE on everything you earn.

This is called Mutuality of Obligation, and to have this in your contract puts you firmly WITHIN IR35.

[MPwannadecentincome]

Thanks all for you comments, very valuable and yes I will learn from this!

To whoever suggested lacking in flexibility I have investigated other avenues but the client was adamant that the meetings be postponed so even if I found and booked another hotel now I would not be able to get a flight - or even if I did get a flight the client won't pay for it as they are providing me with 'free flights'.

On a similar topic though - if the client turned round and said - "all stop everthing is on hold for a week" then where is the poor contracter left - no pay for a week with no compensation?

Surely all I have to put into the contract is words along the lines of "Where the client is unable to ensure sufficient work is in place or is unable to provide the required means to perform the work at the required place then the client shall pay compensation at the rates...."

As my contract makes my clients responsible for the provision of flights and accommodation for our meetings then they should be aware of the penalties for not meeting their obligations - which is what the contract should cover.

[MPwannadecentincome]

Find a contractor in the area.

Frankly I doubt you'd get anything to protect you in the contract. It's unlucky, but something that you should have got sorted out in advance. On the plus side, if you don't deliver, it lessens the chance of a successful action against you for breach.

I did try to sort out in advance, but my contract has the responsibility with the client for booking and paying for my accommodation - it was them who didn't realise there was a big conference going on.

[MPwannadecentincome]

work from home.

next!

yes that is what I'm doing this week now I'm at the stage where I need face to face discussions, one or two conference calls is not going to cut it especially with language differences!

[NotAllThere]

Buy the client company and relocate it somewhere more convenient.