Reply to: Hi all - advice needed for a newbie

[NotAllThere]

I always talk rates. It does annoy the agency so. It also educates the client that the rate they're paying isn't ther rate we get.

[conned tractor]

eh?

[conned tractor]

And how on earth do you get your posts up so that you don't have to wait three weeks for them to be modded.

[conned tractor]

Thanks to all the others that advise.

I have another interview lined up now, which pays a (much) better rate, the agency rep is not a smarmy jumped up little grease ball which i imagine the other (first) to be. Just have to move quick on this one so I have, hopefully, two deals and can play them off.

It is unfortunate on the first role since the job was pretty much perfect, then the second one isn't bad. Have realised contracts come up pretty often and not to be too worried about letting one slip due to dealing with a tosser of an agent. Have chilled a bit and not getting so srtessed about it. Glad i found this site BTW.

Thanks.

Seriously.

[ratewhore]

You sound reasonably switched on compared to some of the first timers so use this to your advantage. My opinion (fwiw) - as you know what the rate should be, tell them that's what your rate is.

And btw, I never discuss rates with a client at interview. Thats for them to decide with the pimp. I'm sure others here do it differently...

[thunderlizard]

The agent rate also matters because it's money in the client's budget that coud be in your pocket if you played things right.

If it's any consolation, the agent's £10k isn't for 1 day's work. It's for the 30 days cold-calling and brown-nosing he's had to do in order to get this particular sale.

The agent is basically negotiating on behalf of the client, so on rate it is basically (you) v (him and the client). Occasionally they're on a fixed %age of rate, which turns things around a bit, but I doubt that's what's happening to you. You should press for the rate you want.

But I would say - don't be too ashamed of being too cheap on your first contract, as long as it's not too long. It's only your first after all, and at least it gets you into the game. Actually, my first hourly rate (10 years ago) was slightly less than a tenth of what it is now .

[mailric]

The Agency rate does matter... what they charge your time in at becomes the basis for their expectations.

The Agents will tell you to take a low rate because you won't be able to hit the ground running like an experience contractor, but they will put you in at the same rate as anyone else. So you'll be taking a lower rate but be expected to do the same as any other contractor there... unless the Agent is also putting you in at a low rate ( ) which would be quite sincer of them ( )

The client won't know what you are getting and it doesnt matter - if they are paying £x per hour then they will expect £x per hours worth of work.

I fell for it in my first contract.. turns out the Agent were charging a higher rate for me than anyone else, so they expected me to look after everyone else!!! (yes, I got screwed)

Take it just to get into the market, but be aware of what the Agent is telling the client.

[conned tractor]

Thats all good and fair advice. I am happy with the rate at £25. I don't want to be greedy and lose out on the contract becuase of it. Especially since the job is pretty much perfect - well as perfect as a job can be. It fits my skills and i can tell them what they want if you know what i mean - don't mean that to sound big headed but in the interview i gained an idea of their level of comprehension for the subject area.

Thanks for the advice. Much appreciated.

Just didn't want be forced into some ankle grabbing by the agent.

90's, yep i did work a few years int the 90's so no not that young.

[NotAllThere]

I don't know if this helps. It's back in the 90s, so I'm probably older than your parents...

However, I was contracting on VAX VMS for a few years - £350/day, then I saw an opportunity to go permie and learn SAP.

I did that for a year, and I asked the contractors at the client site what the going rate was. £500/day. Then I started going contracting again.

As a "first time contractor" I was offered £300/day. I told them to go away and have sexual intercourse. "But your a first timer"..

"No I'm not - go read my CV".

"Oh".

First contract - £450

Second contract - £640.

bit of a dip 2000-2002, but otherwise, never looked back.

[Zippy]

Hello conned tractor

If this is your first contract then you should expect to get paid a bit less than the going rate. My first one was about £23 per hour I think (although there was quite a lot of overtime available to boost my income).
When you have finished this contract then you can be more aggressive about the rate you want - and the agents will be more inclined to pay up.
If I were you (and the client really likes you) I'd try to get a small increase in the hourly rate (£1-2) but I wouldn't push it too much. If you want to pursue a 'career' as a contractor then successfully completed contracts are a powerful selling tool for the future (think cost of sales for the future) and will help up your rate.

Good luck!

[conned tractor]

Was the rate mentioned before or after you went to the interview?

If before and you said nothing than well, you are behind the eight ball.

Rate mentioned before, and yes i am a utter space cadet for not asking in the interview. I take it being behind the eight ball is not good?

However we contractors have by the our mere nature, the ability to ask the agent to bend over and ask them to grab their ankles.

Not a picture i can bear to appreciate i'm afraid. But nice to know.

Are you contracting at the moment?

No, nervous virgin trembling on his first wet finger experience. sorry got carried away there.

It is quite common for a first contract to be paid way under the market rate.

This is my dilema....what should i be paid? I know as much as possible is the answer, and i think the agent is trying to whore me like a russian one legged prostitute with a crack habit. Sorry carried away again.

The standard rate in Areospace engineering has always been £30/hr+, I have PhD, although that was my most recent position, previous aero engineering experience. And best of all, the role is based on what I have spent the last 3 (and a half - cough) years studying, albeit in an acedemic environment. They propose to develop their product to have "this" function and i am part of the team implementing it.

And just to really pee me off, i mentioned it to my current supervisor (industrially based), who said he had been approached for the role through a contractor he knows working there, and he appologised profusely (sp?) for not passing the info on to me which would hae enabled me to go direct.

[quote]Don't get too hung up over how much the agent makes. It will eat you up from the inside.[/qoute]

I can hear the dark side calling at £10K for a WHSmiths ready made contract and a day of sales bull and cold calling. Only joking.

As for whinging ... kid, you're an amateur. We have got world class whingers here.

Do I also sound young do I...mmmm....don't feel it.

Thanks for all the replies so far, they are very much appreciated.

[BrilloPad]

As for whinging ... kid, you're an amateur. We have got world class whingers here.

<Canned Laughter>

[RichardCranium]

"conned tractor" - nice one!

I am not totally wet behind the ears and know that contracting in this area always attracts £30/ hr minimum to about £50/ hr - for at least the last 10 years (only a slight exageration), having worked with many before.

It is quite common for a first contract to be paid way under the market rate. Many 1st time contractors go back to their old job.

Expect - and say you will want - a hefty rate rise after 3 or 6 months.

Right, so how far do you trust agents,

Ha, ha, ha, ha ha. Ho, ho ho. Ha, ha, ha, ha. Ooh, my chest! Ho, ho.

Oh, that's a good one. You'll fit in just fine here.

Do they have a tendancy to spin lines.

Not a tendency as such. More a compulsion.

£25/ hr is not to be grumbled at imo and the job is great (well interesting anyhow), however it's the morallistic issue that i fear he is making well over £10K for effectively about a days work total and ripping me off in the process. This i find is unjustified but i do not want to lose the oppurtunity.

They found you the work. You didn't. Who deserves the commission? They do.

Don't get too hung up over how much the agent makes. It will eat you up from the inside.

Am i being unreasonable/ parnoid/ greedy. What should i do....call his bluff/ ditch it and find something else (which would be a shame)/ confront him.

Certainly try to negotiate and say you know the market rates etc. But it's a gamble.

And apologies for any bad speeling.

And whinging like a girl.

Bad speeling is the norm. It gets picked on but it's the norm.

As for whinging ... kid, you're an amateur. We have got world class whingers here.

[BrilloPad]

Afternoon all,

I have recently been looking for work and a contract turned up for which i went to the interview and everything went well. I liked the job and they seemed to like me. The role fits my skills spectacularly (sp?) and is a specialist position. There are not many people that do this. Sorry to be cryptic but i feel its probably best. Agent gets back to me that they would like to make an offer but have to jump through HR hoops and interview more people first.

Anyway, agent first approached me with details of the job stating it was £20 per hour PAYE, which is apparantly equivilent to approx £25/ hr to then either go ltd or use umbrella.

I am not totally wet behind the ears and know that contracting in this area always attracts £30/ hr minimum to about £50/ hr - for at least the last 10 years (only a slight exageration), having worked with many before.

Right, so how far do you trust agents, are they jumped up little people trying to maximise the difference in a rate being paid to them and the rate paid to you, effectively getting as much commision as possible. Do they have a tendancy to spin lines.

£25/ hr is not to be grumbled at imo and the job is great (well interesting anyhow), however it's the morallistic issue that i fear he is making well over £10K for effectively about a days work total and ripping me off in the process. This i find is unjustified but i do not want to lose the oppurtunity.

Am i being unreasonable/ parnoid/ greedy. What should i do....call his bluff/ ditch it and find something else (which would be a shame)/ confront him.

And apologies for any bad speeling.

And whinging like a girl.

Any response/ advice greatly appreciated.

Conned tractor

Are you contracting at the moment? Sounds like no.

IMO the agent cut is none of your business - but the rate you get is. You sound unhappy with it and want a min of £30. Therefore I think you should hold out for that.

First time contractors sometimes get less - sometimes because clients pay less but mostly as agents beat them down. Often pretending to have other interviews/offers works wonders.

[Magic]

Contract

Afternoon all,

I have recently been looking for work and a contract turned up for which i went to the interview and everything went well. I liked the job and they seemed to like me. The role fits my skills spectacularly (sp?) and is a specialist position. There are not many people that do this. Sorry to be cryptic but i feel its probably best. Agent gets back to me that they would like to make an offer but have to jump through HR hoops and interview more people first.

Anyway, agent first approached me with details of the job stating it was £20 per hour PAYE, which is apparantly equivilent to approx £25/ hr to then either go ltd or use umbrella.

I am not totally wet behind the ears and know that contracting in this area always attracts £30/ hr minimum to about £50/ hr - for at least the last 10 years (only a slight exageration), having worked with many before.

Right, so how far do you trust agents, are they jumped up little people trying to maximise the difference in a rate being paid to them and the rate paid to you, effectively getting as much commision as possible. Do they have a tendancy to spin lines.

£25/ hr is not to be grumbled at imo and the job is great (well interesting anyhow), however it's the morallistic issue that i fear he is making well over £10K for effectively about a days work total and ripping me off in the process. This i find is unjustified but i do not want to lose the oppurtunity.

Am i being unreasonable/ parnoid/ greedy. What should i do....call his bluff/ ditch it and find something else (which would be a shame)/ confront him.

And apologies for any bad speeling.

And whinging like a girl.

Any response/ advice greatly appreciated.

Conned tractor

Dare I say you know most of the answers because you have the knowledge as to what the normal rates are!

Was the rate mentioned before or after you went to the interview?

If before and you said nothing than well, you are behind the eight ball.

However we contractors have by the our mere nature, the ability to ask the agent to bend over and ask them to grab their ankles.

So my advice is tell them £35 an hour or do as above and whistle dixie.