Reply to: Pathway IT Resourcing

[shoes]

I've contracted through this lot, their take was 18% of the total cost to the client. I was happy with the rate I was getting for the work, didn't actually need to do all that much, and it was certainly not an effort to be more impressive than the permies in my dept. Agent made me laugh a few times at renewal time and at interview stage with some of the nonsense he was coming out with, but like any agents you just need to read between the lines and remember that they are out for themselves and are not representing you. Just don't get emotionally involved in any of the rubbish, its business ; You get what you can and so do they. I thought all agents were like that, they have been in my experience.

[tim123]

It doesn't matter what industry I'm in. All industries that require embedded skills pay low rates. For generic skills, that will enable you to work on anything from a TV remote control to a nuclear power station, 320 is a good rate (though we do still work on hourly rates). 260 is not uncommon.

Obviously there are some specialisations that pay better, but they are very niche. A current one is "must have three years experience of RRC", there are perhaps 10 people in the world who will have this.

It used to be possible to get a job working on these niche skils without them and ramp yourself up to a good rate. But I'm currently finding that impossible, clients are leaving positions unfilled if they don't get a match. Possibly they take the attitude that if we have to train someone, we will train one of our perms.

I'm also seeing much more outsourcing to India and the like. There are quite a few jobs available 'integrating' the code when it comes back. But I hate this type of work. I hate it generally, but I double hate it when the code that one is being asked to integate is sh1t (which IME it is) and I spend my time thinking, "I could do so much better than this".

Perhaps things will get better if the market continues to pick up, perhaps not.

So, how do I get a bog standard programming job for a bank? It (the work) can't be any harder than what I do do.

Finally, yes I moan all the time, it's my signature

tim

[barely_pointless]

Tim,

I have no idea of what industry you're in, but I was referring in my post to mostly Finance, Datawarehousing, etc, typically Banks, large Insurance (yawn) and the very big and self important corporations that Monty Python (an I ) love to deride.

I would think that sub 300 (GBP) for any form of embedded C work (assuming you must have say a few years (3-4+) under your belt) sounds a bit low ?

Most of the jobs I detailed in my previous post are for fairly experienced people, even the Junior Developer would have say 3-4+ years, The senior you'd be looking at 6-7+ and the Senior BA 12+(yawn me ) about 20 years..............I wonder where the time went.........it seems only yesterday I was trying to sneak (late again) into the visitors carpark at stockley park whilst trying to avoid the ex-squaddie security guys who place a large yellow 1 foot square unremovable sticker on the windscreen if you're a conractor and you park in the wrong spot.........

[Coding4FUN]

Here Here!!

Just chill

[scriptfromscratch]

all you ever do is moan mr 123, chin up lad

[tim123]

I can see that margins are being pushed downwards, but I'm not seeing the benefit of that, it's coming to me as a cost (either in reduced fees or tougher negotiation).

I've worked for the large multinational companies that have preferred supplier lists and agreed rates. But IME they don't have fixed margin agreements.

My clients are saying ,we're paying 350, take it or leave it and then agents come to me and say "will you work for 250". To which my reply is "no". Some agents will come back and offer 280-300, others will say "OK, we'll look for someone who will then". One or two agents will offer 280 in the first place, but not many.

Edit:

In most cases it is the smaller agencies who are the 'good' guys here. The large agencies, with their cheaper money supply, are the ones who are asking for the bigger margin - because they have a unnecessary heirarchy of salesmen who need to be paid.

tim

[malvolio]

because they work thru Hays, Reed etc at massive sites like HBOS where they are sole suppliers and as such do the old high volume low margin routine and work to 8%.

Or take that to the extreme and my last agency was running my services at 4%. Since most agencies seem to agree that in the open market anything much under 10% is commercially unsustainable, they must have had a very solid, cast-iron payment regime from the end client.

The other thought to bear in mind is that margins are constantly being pushed downwards. It won't be that long before the smaller agencies will have to dop out of the market or change the way they make their money...

[scriptfromscratch]

because they work thru Hays, Reed etc at massive sites like HBOS where they are sole suppliers and as such do the old high volume low margin routine and work to 8%.

[tim123]

OK seen it now. I just scanned the first line that said GBP.

So how is it people are getting 10% margins as the norm then?

tim

[expat]

I'm in the wrong job.

Junior developer @ 500+! Are you sure you're not talking aussie dollars?
tim

"all rates in aussie dollars"

[tim123]

I'm in the wrong job.

Junior developer @ 500+! Are you sure you're not talking aussie dollars?

SQL can't be that hard can it? Coding is coding is coding. It the logical understanding you need to do the job properly, not some language syntax.

I'm a senior embedded bod. This requires normal C programming, but pretty in depth understand of the hardware is required (which not a lot have IME).
The client's paying 330. This is a bit low, but not out of the ball park.

I got the agent down to a 15% margin, I think that this is the lowest that I've ever achieved. Even the guys that I recognise as being the 'honest' ones, reckon that they can't go below 17.5% for the initial period.

Perhaps this is why I have problems with these (S3) guys. For a client paying 360 the difference between 20 and 30% takes the rate into the realms where I could get more as a perm. But if the client's paying 600, (a) you're still going to get a decent rate, (b) the fixed costs (office overheads) of placing someone are going to be a much lower percentage of the total.

Are there really clients out there paying 600 for basic code cutters?

How do I get one of these jobs?

tim

[barely_pointless]

ah, I thought it was just me, (bear in mind i'm in oz, and I did look at a "prospect" in the UK last year - a very lucrative 700+GBP a day for "old rope contract", s'ok to discuss as it's dead now), but these clowns send me an email about once a week for work in the Thames Valley, or joyous and pork free Frankfurt (which I said central london only) and it's all very interesting........

regarding rates, I always tell new contractors to try and punch higher than their worth, because there is nothing worse than doing a job and thinking you've been taken for a ride (I speak from experience)

Here's the actual deal from my recent experience in Sydney, I generally float between SBA and Specialist (dan't be arsed with PM work as it involves licking too much ) all rates in aussie dollars or peso's if you wish.

Junior Developer (SQL, warehousing, oracle, teradata) 500+
Senior Developer (as above) 600+
BA( non tech)(varies 450 - 550)
BA(Tech, ie you can write sql and are an ex developer) 600 odd
Senior BA (tech, ie you can code and bullshi**) 650-750
Project Manager (700 + up to 900)

Specialist BA/Tech Consultant(i.e Oracle apps) 800+ a day.

At the moment if you know datastage , informatica or any other potion conjurering data transformation kit, it's about 800 a day give or take.


Agency margins vary, some are like your old computer futures barrow boys and try and take 20-30%, the more professional ones will generally take 10-15% and pay every two weeks (not negotiable)

[scriptfromscratch]

just had a call from one of these guys at Pathway . . . its 14.26 on a Saturday! I told him he should go home, then he booked me in for an interview on Monday. ruined my weekend.

[Cowboy Bob]

Surely it's Agent -> Scum

One of my most memorable moments is meeting and old childhood freind at a wedding, he was with his current girlfriend and I was with my wife.

He introduced his girlfreind and my wife asked her what she did for a living. She replied "Recruitment Consultant", to which my wife replied "Oh, you mean scum". The look on her face was priceless, as was the look on my wife's face as she realised what she had said and apologised profusely.

Interestingly enough my brother's girlfriend works for an agency (that isn't Summer, Autumn or Winter) and I've referred to her many times as a pimp without thinking. As a pimp though, she has a thick skin and just laughs it off.

[senditback]

ha ha ha