Reply to: Push for a higher rate

[TheFaQQer]

I don't think any agent should take more than 15% of your gross.

Any basis for that figure?

If they are factoring the invoices so that you get better payment terms, then anything much under 12% is hard to manage. Last two I spoke to were on 12.9% and 10% margin, which they told me without me even asking them, which was a pleasant surprise.

[s2budd]

Excellent

I just love playing hardball with the double glazing type of agents.
I had one ring me last night. Limited details on the role, has not read my CV and trying to fill a role that a limited number of people have and even less would admit too - KeON BoKS / eTrust security at JPMC in Bournemouth.
They seem to think that you would bite their hand off for the contract whatever the rate is.

[dude69]

I don't think any agent should take more than 15% of your gross.

[BrowneIssue]

Good grief - sounds almost exactly the same as dealings I had with an agent a few weeks ago. Rate started as one thing (I said would prefer higher), by the time I had the interview the rate was lowered (as there was a misunderstanding with the client as to the project rate).

After the interview the agent badgered me for him to accept the gig on my behalf, if they offered it, even though I said I wanted more money and used my usual spiel of 'accepting depending on contract terms and conditions being to my satisfaction' - which he didnt understand. They offered me the gig without the extra cash I asked for, I refused, (much to the agent's displeasure), they then came back and said yes you can have the extra money but we have to cut your hours (zero point on that one then really).

More badgering, more lets accept on your behalf gubbins and so finally I walked and said 'no thanks'. (got another gig a week later back at my 'proper' rate).... Makes me wonder if the agency is the same one really.

I don't believe this. I just walked away from a Hays role because this describes what they did. I dropped the rate before the interview, after the interview, then it was the hours, they was the "time of the essence" which wasn't true and "accept on my behalf".

They also went to great lengths to slag off the client saying how they were incompetent at budget management and it was all their fault.

[ZoppZ]

I am in telco and I had same experience with HAYS. I got ripped off for first 3 months then I went to the client preferred supplier, who only took 10%, as compare 37% by HAYS.

Someone who use to work for them told me , they call around to see who is willing to work at lower rate. Once they estabish rates they put forward condidates they can make bigger margins on.

[NickNick]

Name and Shame

Thing is though, everyone could be talking about the same agency here or different ones. In my experience they are all the same.

I get loads and loads of calls about jobs at a certain telco and everything needs to be moved on straight away, and the rate is never what you ask for, always the top end of what the client is offering etc etc etc. And this is from a variety of agencies.

There is one particularly bad one based in Bristol who I stopped dealing with, letting them know why (politely) each time they called. They now have a sister agency who I've been giving a chance, but lo and behold, they are exactly the same as the parent group.

Its a lose lose situation. In the current market there is no way to contract without an agency, and they know it, so they have you over a barrel. If you do tell em to get stuffed, then as there are so many of us now, they can pick up another body for interview for relatively small effort.

Just my 2p anyway.
N

[bellymonster]

Makes me wonder if the agency is the same one really.

You could always name and shame.....

[bassy]

Good grief - sounds almost exactly the same as dealings I had with an agent a few weeks ago. Rate started as one thing (I said would prefer higher), by the time I had the interview the rate was lowered (as there was a misunderstanding with the client as to the project rate).

After the interview the agent badgered me for him to accept the gig on my behalf, if they offered it, even though I said I wanted more money and used my usual spiel of 'accepting depending on contract terms and conditions being to my satisfaction' - which he didnt understand. They offered me the gig without the extra cash I asked for, I refused, (much to the agent's displeasure), they then came back and said yes you can have the extra money but we have to cut your hours (zero point on that one then really).

More badgering, more lets accept on your behalf gubbins and so finally I walked and said 'no thanks'. (got another gig a week later back at my 'proper' rate).... Makes me wonder if the agency is the same one really.

[NotAllThere]

I'm actually considering chucking it anyway as I really don't want to have anything to do with the agency.

Excellent. Now you have nothing to lose you can play really hardball.

But do write to the client saying you're up for the gig once a few details have been worked out with the agency. That's a lovely bit of leverage.

And once your bum is on seat at the client, and you start invoicing, hit them with the late payment act as soon as they're a day over.

[rootsnall]

Sounds like you are in strong position, dictate your terms on a take it or leave it basis ( I'd up the rate even more !!! ). Once you are on site you don't have much to do with the agent so don't bin a good gig because they've annoyed you.

[Keldin]

I'm actually considering chucking it anyway as I really don't want to have anything to do with the agency.

These guys really do give agents a bad name. They are obviously lying through their teeth (even more than normal for an agent) and have started on the threatening behaviour now.
It's become obvious that when they said the client was looking at a maximum of x that was what the agent was willing to pay. During teh first interview/meeting the client had no indication of what rate to pay or what I was looking for. Agency are now claiming that x was my rate (seem to have forgotten that my rate was higer and that was the rate the 'client' was apparently looking for.

They now say that they had put me forward at that rate so it's too late to change (complete lie as the client has no idea) and that I had accepted at that rate. I've impressed teh client enough that I think the agent will be pushing for more and definitely not passing the extra on.

They are also constantly pushing for me to allow them to 'accept an offer on my behalf' when it comes in even though things like hours, start date, duration etc haven't been confirmed. (depending on when you talk to teh agent it is either an 8, 9 or 10 hour day) When I tell them to get stuffed they exclaim that speed is of the essence and it couldn't possibly wait for them to get hold of me first and anyway what the problem I've already agreed to it.

They also keep going on that my contract is with them (as though I've already signed something to that effect) which makes me even more suspicious.
They're also trying the tag team ploy with the agent and the agent's boss both calling me.

They're actually just bad news, bully boy conmen. By far the worst I've come across. Incompetence I can live with but these guys are like the agent versions of pikey driveway pavers.

Things certainly have changed in the 2 years since I last had to do this. Before then all the agents were happy to find you work and take a cut. Willing to negotiate up a well as down and more than happy to help get more for both of you. Haven't found anything like that now.

K

[lukemg]

You are right to be suspicious, if they aren't on a PSL fixed percentage then they are almost certainly talking you down and the client up to skim as much as possible.
Answer is simple, if you get the role AND IF you are prepared to walk, tell them that you want x +10% where x is a good rate for the role/area etc. If quizzed about saying you would take less, say that at interview it was clear the role was more senior/more responsibility blah blah and you have raised the rate accordingly.
Heres what they will almost certainly do:
1. Tell you that there is no chance the client will pay that.
2. If you dig in, they will say look I will try to get you a bit more.
3. After a suitable time (an hour maybe) they will phone back - sorry, did my best, the client wont move - almost certainly they have not spoken to the client at all.
4. Most people cave in at this stage because they think they will lose the gig and there is a chance they will.
5. Those with steel spuds (or with another role lined up) can play hardball at this stage and say, sorry to hear that, thanks for all your efforts,bye.
6. There is a good chance that they will phone you back with a compromise offer, likely to be very close to your first figure.
7. There is also a good chance they will phone the client, tell them you have taken another role that you never mentioned and that you wanted x + x to do the job, slagged the place off etc etc so you get the blame and they have a chance to find someone, client may also have liked 2 candidates so they can push the other in quick and tell him he was first choice !!!
They are seeing the full picture, you can't and they do this every day, you don't which is why they usually win.
One other thing you can do is maintain contact with the client, email address, phone etc. Get in touch and say you were impressed with the place, looking forward to working there once a few details are cleared up with the agent. This completely destroys the agent when he says you bailed and slagged them off.
All these things are easy to advise than to do, best bet is to be happy with the rate before interview, even if it costs you the role.
Good Luck !

[rootsnall]

I may be totally over-simplifying it but if you end up getting the rate you're happy with then does it matter what the client pays the pimp?

Yes, if the agency are on a big margin and you end up at the client longer term it will lead to problems. Often it is a naive client who is paying over the odds but they often wise up and it is then you who has to handle things on site.

If you are worried about the agency margin then ask them what it is, if they won't tell you say you want an email stating it is say 20% or less. Again if they won't do that you know they are are on an OTT margin. It has worked for me in the past. Be prepared to walk if the agent won't play ball.

[Keldin]

If you've not signed an NDA, what's to stop you discussing rates with the client?

Very true. For my own peaces of mind I think I will have to do just that.

K

[NotAllThere]

..
Now the thing that's bugging me is that in every single conversation and email I have had with the agency they have brought up (quite forcefully sometimes) the fact that I should not discuss the rate with the client. And I do mean every conversation ...

If you've not signed an NDA, what's to stop you discussing rates with the client?