Reply to: Daily Rate - is this clause normal?

[Jog On]

I had this in my last gig, if I took 2 hours off to go to the doctor or something they tried telling me that it was ½ a day. I said err no it’s 2 hours. What we eventually agreed to was that I had to work out the time off as a percentage of a 7.5 hour day…..

Then they wanted to extend my working day past 7.5 hours so I stated that any time over their 7.5 hour day would be overtime charged at overtime rate – I think they were expecting me to stick to the ‘daily rate’ with an extra ½ an hour worked a day instead of my proposal that the extra ½ an hour would be billed at time and a half. I left the gig (for other reasons) before it came to that but I was all set to calculate what percentage of a 7.5 hour day an extra 30 mins was and invoice them time and a half for it.

Glad I didn’t have to mess around doing that and am now on a normal hourly rate again but if they enforce a 7.5 hour daily rate and a 45 hour work week it can backfire on them if you end up working ½ an hour ‘overtime’ every day

[malvolio]

What are the views on about a contract with a schedule that specifies a daily rate and number of hours per week, rather than PWD?

It would be an abomination in the eyes of the Lord, actually.

If they want you to account for all hours worked and charged for, you use an hourly rate. If not, you use a day rate. There is no sensible middle ground that is not open to abuse from one side or the other, which makes it somewhat pointless.

But then this is a CP contract, so only loosely in touch with reality anyway.

[gadgetman]

What are the views on about a contract with a schedule that specifies a daily rate and number of hours per week, rather than PWD?

[shoes]

Unless this is a clause that the client insisted on - since a true B2B relationship the agency contract to contractor should mirror that to the client, then there's a good chance that they will know what's in it.

Yeah technically it should do, but things are more fuzzy than that in reality in my experience. Unless the end client is a small company trying to squeeze all they can out of an 'expensive' contractor and it is something they have insisted on I don't think it will make any difference to the day to day reality. It's probably just the standard clause content the agency uses to define what a working day means.

OP should get it changed if it bothers them. If it was me and the end client was a large company used to dealing with different contractors from different suppliers I wouldn't bother.

[TheFaQQer]

I doubt very much anyone you work with will know anything about any of the individual clauses in your companies contract with the agency

Unless this is a clause that the client insisted on - since a true B2B relationship the agency contract to contractor should mirror that to the client, then there's a good chance that they will know what's in it.

[shoes]

If this clause has no impact on IR35 I don't see whats to be gained in getting it removed, unless you want to work paid overtime on an hourly rate basis. I doubt very much anyone you work with will know anything about any of the individual clauses in your companies contract with the agency, and will be rubbing their hands as they insist on 9 hours a day. The incompetence of admin staff will mean the contract between the agency and end client won't mirror it anyway. It just says do at least 7.5 hours, if you do any more it's still going to be called a days work for charging purposes. Do your 7.5 hours and call it a day, the client won't be bothered or probably even aware of the specifics.

[TheFaQQer]

I would seriously get the contract changed or tell them to f*** off.

Welcome SueEllen.

How come no-one has asked you to get them out yet?

[Bluebird]

I've always had an hourly up until now, but latest client insists on daily rate, which I don't object to except this clause in the contract:

Fee rate:
Professional Working Day means seven and half (7 and ½) hours each Working Day (i.e Monday to Friday) including the required hours of 10.00 to 12.00 and 14.00 to 16.00 (less half an hour for lunch Monday to Friday between the hours of 12.00 and 14.00). The Professional Working Week is normally a 37.5 hour week but on notification by the Client to the relevant Personnel the Professional Working Week may be extended to up to 45 hours in any week without incurring any overtime charges. Any time spent by the relevant Personnel in excess of the 45 hour Professional Working Week will be charged on an hourly basis at a pro-rated hourly rate of the relevant Fee Rate (“Prorated Rate”) as overtime with prior agreement of the Client Hiring Manager. If the Personnel provides Services during any Professional Working Day for a period which is less than the required minimum of seven and half (7 and ½) hours, the Contractor will only be entitled to charge the Company for the actual hours worked by the Personnel at a pro-rated hourly rate of the relevant Fee Rate (“Prorated Rate”).

Now the rate is ok (not exceptional) for 7.5 hours but awful for 9 would you insist on getting this clause changed or just walk away?

Also Does them stipulating the times in this way put you within IR35?

Steve

It's interesting as well that they start talking about "working day" then go on about "working week".
If they want you to be able to work more hours they should state that the min hours for a working day = 7.5 and the maximum = 9.

However by introducing the concept of a working week, they could ask you to work Saturday or Sunday for free.

I'd tell them to stick it up their

[SueEllen]

I was talking to two of the permies at my last client and they stated in their previous workplaces they had exact clauses like this in their contracts, which is why they found new jobs.

(I was trying to get out names of the companies but they weren't so forthcoming as we were talking in the middle of an open plan office.)

I've never had a clause like this in a contract or even when I was permanent and the company I worked for where a bunch of t****s.

I'm a bit of a hoarder so have some old contracts lying around and the ones that stipulate time either state 7.5 hours and/or being available during the core hours of the business which is usually 10am to 4pm.

I would seriously get the contract changed or tell them to f*** off.

[Flat Eric]

a) Computer people = tossers

I hope you mean "Computer People" and not the generalisation

[Not So Wise]

Prefer hourly for same reason, if I want to leave early it is generally is no bother to the client as they don't pay for time I am not here. Currently I turn up when want and leave when I want and only have to consult with client if I am going to go much beyond the 37.7 hours for the week.

Where as others here on daily rate get the inquisition if they are much more than 30 mins late or leave slightly early

As to the original posters question, if it was me, personally would not sign that contract even before I got to the IR35 question for two reasons in the following order

a) Computer people = tossers
b) They are basically asking you to work extra hours for free when it suits them and for you to take a pay cut when it does not

[Bluebird]

If they're saying we've paid you for the full day so you must do the full day, then that sounds a bit like D&C.

But I know what you mean. It's easier to justify leaving early, if only to yourself, if you're not being paid for it.

It's also quite handy as I have another client who I work for on an hourly basis as well...

[VectraMan]

If I'm only in the office for 6 hours - thats how much I get paid for - I don't have to sit around for an hour and a half so they get their pound of flesh.

If they're saying we've paid you for the full day so you must do the full day, then that sounds a bit like D&C.

But I know what you mean. It's easier to justify leaving early, if only to yourself, if you're not being paid for it.

[TheFaQQer]

I've done both - I prefer hours as it give me more flexibility.

If I'm only in the office for 6 hours - thats how much I get paid for - I don't have to sit around for an hour and a half so they get their pound of flesh.

Part of me says that on a more complicated, time-sensitive piece of work, I'd prefer to be on an hourly rate.

That said, it might impact my ability to post on here if I did that.

[Bluebird]

I've done both - I prefer hours as it give me more flexibility.

If I'm only in the office for 6 hours - thats how much I get paid for - I don't have to sit around for an hour and a half so they get their pound of flesh.