Reply to: Computer People

[CiderEagle]

They wouldn't change a contract to be outside IR35 ..

... so I went for a different contract. Wouldn't touch them with a bargepole. They've always been legendary for taking huge cuts as well.

[TheFaQQer]

Unfortunately I did not have access to the client details - only the guy who interviewed me, who was away, rather than the person I would work with. So the time delay proved to be an issue.

CP also sent me the contract the night before I was due to start and rang to say I must sign it before starting (as was stated in the contract several times).

They did not actually tell me that they were retracting the offer (just that they might if it is not resolved by 5pm). They claimed that their legal department did not have time to look at the changes requested. I saw the ad on jobserve go out at 4:45pm!

So playing hardball did not work for me - seems they would rather lose the contractor and start again. Keeping away from CP from now on!

Sometimes it works, and sometimes it won't - I guess it depends on your skillset and how much the client really wants you. If they get no response from their Jobserve ad, don't be surprised if they ring you with "we've had a chance to look at the changes you wanted..."

[jo99]

Unfortunately I did not have access to the client details - only the guy who interviewed me, who was away, rather than the person I would work with. So the time delay proved to be an issue.

CP also sent me the contract the night before I was due to start and rang to say I must sign it before starting (as was stated in the contract several times).

They did not actually tell me that they were retracting the offer (just that they might if it is not resolved by 5pm). They claimed that their legal department did not have time to look at the changes requested. I saw the ad on jobserve go out at 4:45pm!

So playing hardball did not work for me - seems they would rather lose the contractor and start again. Keeping away from CP from now on!

[TheFaQQer]

I did copy in the client on the initial email...... However the manager was away for a week and when he came back, I heard nothing - I assume the agency had fed him a few lies.

Shame he was away - with me, I got my line into the client first and explained the situation and that I couldn't sign the contract as it was. I was very apologetic about it, but explained that without a contract I wasn't turning up, and Ajilon had wasted so much time and sprung it on me at the last minute, there was no way I was starting.

Client then put some pressure on (I think) - they tried the same "it's this or nothing" approach, so I told them it would be nothing, and they made the changes that I wanted in the end.

[Epiphone]

Are you a member? You can always ask them directly on their fora... PCG have faced down bigger people than CP in the past, so that's not a consideration

Anyway, I'm minded to ask myself, so I'll stick something up and see what materialises...

I am so I'll pop along later and try find the right forum to put it in so it doesn't get hit by the mighty Delete button

[jo99]

I did copy in the client on the initial email...... However the manager was away for a week and when he came back, I heard nothing - I assume the agency had fed him a few lies.

[Bluebird]

The CP contract is v bad - not outside IR35. I recently got a contract through them and they insisted I sign it or the client would withdraw the offer (that was after I listed the changes that would be needed).

My main objection was in signing a contract with a confidentiality section to be signed by me individually rather than my limited company. The 'confidentialty' agreement was anything but that and it included an unlimited personal liability clause - which seems rather sneaky and inappropriate. Needless to say I did not start the contract.

I am disappopinted that the clients think that this is acceptable behaviour/contract!

In that case I think you are quite within your rights to approach the client direct and point out the problems with CP

[jo99]

Dodgy Contract

The CP contract is v bad - not outside IR35. I recently got a contract through them and they insisted I sign it or the client would withdraw the offer (that was after I listed the changes that would be needed).

My main objection was in signing a contract with a confidentiality section to be signed by me individually rather than my limited company. The 'confidentialty' agreement was anything but that and it included an unlimited personal liability clause - which seems rather sneaky and inappropriate. Needless to say I did not start the contract.

I am disappopinted that the clients think that this is acceptable behaviour/contract!

[Ardesco]

The problem with this approach is that if the contract has dual clauses (like Section 5 applies if opted in and section 6 applies if opted out) you could be over a barrel when investigated by HMRC as they could then argue that you were opted in when you were under the impression that you were opted out.


Generally something needs to be done about this to make it clear for everybody IMHO.

[TheFaQQer]

I have already said that I believe it is legal, however it goes against the intentions of the Conduct of Employment Agencies and Employment Businesses Regulations 2003. The regulations state that you should not be refused a job because you decide to opt in to prevent agencies from bullying people to opt out.

I would argue that Computer People are in effect trying to bully you into opting out by offering preferential contractual terms if you do and crippling the contract if you dont. IMHO this is a loophole in the regulations that ought to be closed up.

I suspect that if you took this to court you would have a good chance of winning, but until a test case has gone through the courts and the legislation is clarified agencies like Computer People will continue to get away with this.

Generally, it makes no odds.

Guy I was dealing with explained the situation as "we always present CVs to the client as opted in, and then offer you the choice to opt out when you get the contract". Failure to understand the concept of opting in or out before being introduced to the client, then.

[Ardesco]

It seems perfectly legal to me. They are under no obligation to offer the contract that you want - it's up to you to accept it or not. Frustrating, but legal.

Completely unethical, but since when has that bothered agencies?

I have already said that I believe it is legal, however it goes against the intentions of the Conduct of Employment Agencies and Employment Businesses Regulations 2003. The regulations state that you should not be refused a job because you decide to opt in to prevent agencies from bullying people to opt out.

I would argue that Computer People are in effect trying to bully you into opting out by offering preferential contractual terms if you do and crippling the contract if you dont. IMHO this is a loophole in the regulations that ought to be closed up.

I suspect that if you took this to court you would have a good chance of winning, but until a test case has gone through the courts and the legislation is clarified agencies like Computer People will continue to get away with this.

[TheFaQQer]

I think it is legal, although they are treading on the edges of the law here. They cannot refuse to offer you the job if you refuse to opt out, but I belive they are allowed to fiddle with some terms and conditions.

IMHO it is bordering on the illegal, but would really need somebody to take them to court with a test case to get anything done about it. (Anybody up for a fight ?? )

It seems perfectly legal to me. They are under no obligation to offer the contract that you want - it's up to you to accept it or not. Frustrating, but legal.

Completely unethical, but since when has that bothered agencies?

[Troll]

Could be in line with a gig with these guys, and have heard "mixed" opinions about whether they are good, bad or IR35 unfriendly.

Can anybody supply ggod points / bad points from recent experience ?

Are they happy to alter contracts or is it standard and thats it ?

Best avoid CP if possible - trouble is they are preferred supplier with some big names

Their opening gambit is usually to inform you that their contract is caught by IR35 and they would not modify mine- but the contract is only one aspect of your work practice

Their mission statement is "to be the agency of choice for contractors" which is laughable

They have some nice tottie working in their contractor relations dept

After 3 months I declined the offered extension and went to another client with an agency that basically let me write my own contract

HTH

[malvolio]

Aye, I've just skimmed through the PCG guide again and it's a gray area.




Yeah, the PCG should be. How do we get em to take it up? Or are CP one of the big ones the PCG just offer advice to and get told to pee off?

Are you a member? You can always ask them directly on their fora... PCG have faced down bigger people than CP in the past, so that's not a consideration

Anyway, I'm minded to ask myself, so I'll stick something up and see what materialises...

[Epiphone]

I think it is legal, although they are treading on the edges of the law here. They cannot refuse to offer you the job if you refuse to opt out, but I belive they are allowed to fiddle with some terms and conditions.

Aye, I've just skimmed through the PCG guide again and it's a gray area.

(Anybody up for a fight ?? )

Yeah, the PCG should be. How do we get em to take it up? Or are CP one of the big ones the PCG just offer advice to and get told to pee off?