Reply to: opt in, opt out!!

[Bluebird]

Office Angels temps, not proper contractors, and they don't normally get interviewed, they just appear.

wow, can somebody tell me how to make an "office angel" appear - I've got a few hours to spare at lunchtime...

[floatsy]

OK Thanks, guys. I'd never heard of the term until I saw this forum's thread on it (ie. this one).

I spoke today to someone (newbie status and all) at an agency who casually mentioned it would help IR status etc etc baloney.

Fortunately (for me ) I have read what you guys said so yes, I said well that is irrelevant now that I am doing brolly, and also given that I've met client, it's irrelevant.

i.e. In other words, you are right, there is a lot of misrepresentation happening in this market.

Thanks, guys, for your keen eye and for the bollocks warnings

[Ardesco]

Some relevant info: http://www.morgan-west.co.uk/candida...any_Opt_Out_21

Looks like a load of FUD if you ask me. Most of thier points are rubbish and it is blatantly written to encourage you to opt out so they can have an easy life.

[TheFaQQer]

Some relevant info: http://www.morgan-west.co.uk/candida...any_Opt_Out_21

Bear in mind that this is information provided by an agency though - it's in their interest to persuade you to opt out of the regulations, as it means that they can put different restrictive clauses in contracts, and don't have to do any initial checking.

Pretty much any agency will tell you the same thing - if you opt in then you are more likely to be caught by IR35 (rubbish), that it takes longer and you might miss the gig if you're not quick, and "it makes no difference to us if you opt in or out".

My current contract started out as a "oh, it's no difference to us if you opt in" until they sent the IR35 unfriendly contract, which they were (initially) only willing to change if I opted out. It was only when I mentioned that I was discussing it with the PCG Legal Helpline that their stance changed!

[floatsy]

Some relevant info: http://www.morgan-west.co.uk/candida...any_Opt_Out_21

[scooterscot]

ah 1,2 , 3 .... opt in, opt out, shake it all about...

[malvolio]

From what I understand initially there was going to be no opt out at all but due to a very small group of contractors operating in a very different way from normal IT contractors the PGC pushed for the whole opt out thing and tbh I really wish they had not because the amount of confusion and bulltulip they created has certainly not been worth the hassle

You really shouldn't generalise from the viewpoint of an IT BoS contractor. That "very small group" was actually around 80% of the independent workers in the country - people like an awful lot of engineers and technical staff, corner shop owners, pub landlords, drivers, medical temps. Call it around 300,000 people, all of whom were potentially caught by the regulations with their totally inadequate understanding of the problem and ridiculously poor drafting (like almost every other piece of NL legislation, in fact)

PCG wouldn't have had long arguments with both the DTI and the EU if they didn't think there was a constituency that was being ignored.

[TheFaQQer]

Opting in seems to mean that the agent will have to do some work. Opting out means that they can skip it.

As a consequence, some agencies will try and "persuade" you to opt out - my current gig they offered a contract that was incredibly IR35 unfriendly, and said that if I wanted a better one, then I should opt out instead. It was only when I said that I would walk and let the end client know why, that they even offered to discuss making changes to the contract...

[Not So Wise]

my head aches!!

I still don't really know what I'm opting in or out of!!
This the first gig I'm doing with an agency, I usually have just gone direct to client, with a PCG contract, or have contracted overseas

Best way to understand it's relevance to you is read the title "Conduct of Employment Agencies and Employment Businesses Regulations 2003 "

Aka it's all about rules and regs for agencies not contractors, there really is no downside to opting in as a contractor and a quite few upsides if you don't normally do hard negotiations with your contracts, large portions of standard agency contracts become invalid if opted in while if you opt out it gives agencies more freedom to screw you over with the contract terms ( also while many agencies claim opting out puts you either completely or partially outside IR35 this is total crap, one has nothing to do with the other)

From what I understand initially there was going to be no opt out at all but due to a very small group of contractors operating in a very different way from normal IT contractors the PGC pushed for the whole opt out thing and tbh I really wish they had not because the amount of confusion and bulltulip they created has certainly not been worth the hassle

[oraclesmith]

...and I guess if they let you opt out and give you an IR35 friendly contract even though technically it's too late, then they take the rap for breaking the law.

[malvolio]

Teh agency reguations were a DTI intiiaitve to stop some major temping agwencies taking the wotsit out of their PAYE employees, byu ensuring things like right to payment, minimal handcuff and a whole pile of legal support and care issues, like ensuring references right to work and that kind of thing.. Becuase 90% of this didn't apply to the average freelance contractor, and the bits that did made it harder to persuade Hector that you wren't some kind of temporary employee, PCG fought for and won the option to step completely outside the regulations. That is what is known as the opt out.

Basically, becuase opting out saves the agency a lot of effort, you should be able to get a more IR35-friendly contract as a quid pro quo. If you opt in, it has no affect on IR35, it does mean you will get paid even if the agency isn't, and there is a lower limit on handcuff clauses. You'll also get asked a lot more pointlessly stupid questions like references for three years and so on. I think the opt-out benefits outweigh the opt-in ones myself, but others of a more timid nature seem to disagree.

As for the agencies, if you are opted in they have to do more work for their money. Shame...

[oraclesmith]

my head aches!!

I still don't really know what I'm opting in or out of!!

It's the Conduct of Employment Agencies and Employment Businesses Regulations 2003

It's designed to protect permatemps. If you find your accidently opted in by not doing anything, then it's not always a bad thing as you will gain certain rights and protections. For example you can't be prevented from working direct to the client after the contract ends.

If you opt out, then you are (arguably) in a better position regarding IR35. You can only opt out if you are somehow going through a limited co. - either your own or someone elses.

[cykophysh39]

my head aches!!

I still don't really know what I'm opting in or out of!!
This the first gig I'm doing with an agency, I usually have just gone direct to client, with a PCG contract, or have contracted overseas

[thunderlizard]

You're right. You can't 'opt in' because you're in to start with. No opting is required. You either can opt out (except you can't now because it's too late), or not opt out.

The best bit is when they call it "opting out of IR35".

[malvolio]

Well that's the idea, but the rules are a bit ambiguous, and the agencies seem to be taking an extreme interpretation. "Introduced to the client" is the key - we alwyas assumed that was when the CV went in, but there is now a school of thought that it is when you turn up at the client's door. DTI aren't any help either.

The other problem is that the regs are actually drafted for the Office Angels temps, not proper contractors, and they don't normally get interviewed, they just appear.

PCG is having a bit of a debate about it, and hopefully we'll get a better answer. Safest bet is to opt out right from the start and jump back in if you want to any time up to starting work.

And whatever else you do, you don't ever sign any agency opt-out pro formas, which often contain other bits you don't want in your contract. Write your own, along the lines of "Mr Nobody and Mr Nobody's Co Ltd do not wish the agency regulations to apply to any contract with DodgyAgency PLC"