Reply to: Bad Reference?

[BlasterBates]

I'm currently a permie who's frustrated with my current position and thinking of going contracting soon. Unfortunately, my frustration with where I am has resulted in a daft joke (concerning my workplace) email being sent to someone it shouldn't have done, and I fear the worst (ie dismissal) as a result. Stupid mistake, but there you go.

So, I may need to get a contract faster than I thought. The problem being my reference from my last employer. I've read several times that references are rarely taken up by clients. Is this true? Should I just risk it and give the name of a trusted colleague there (who may be compelled to disclose my reason for leaving)? Or should I discuss this with a potential client at interview time?

I think the latter would be fairly likely to lose me the job although I feel I'm very strong in my core skills.

Thanks for any advice anyone can offer

If you didn't personally insult anyone, it may not be a problem, especially if it is funny.

What did you say ?

We can judge it using our long experience of knowing what you can joke about.

[angusglover]

I always used to say "Anyone that can get XXX to work for them, is indeed fortunate"....

[BrilloPad]

I always ask my agency for a written reference when I leave a client. Clients cant give references.

If I am ever asked for a client reference I just ask if the new client will give a reference. Answer always no.

These days actal references are given from agents to agents. Anything else is just an agent trying to get leads. total madness.

[KentPhilip]

I'm currently a permie who's frustrated with my current position and thinking of going contracting soon. Unfortunately, my frustration with where I am has resulted in a daft joke (concerning my workplace) email being sent to someone it shouldn't have done, and I fear the worst (ie dismissal) as a result. Stupid mistake, but there you go.

Go on - post the contents of the email (minus names). We want a laugh.

[RangerRob]

Thanks everyone for your words of advice on this matter. I'll let you all know the outcome in the near future.

If the worst does happen, I'm hoping to be able to negotiate a decent reference in return for handing over my work in a professional manner, and to be available to provide some limited support for a period of time after my leaving. I'm hoping that will be accepted.

Otherwise - I guess I'll need to be creative on the refs!

In any case, the whole thing has taught me 3 important lessons
1. Be careful with emails at work
2. Be careful with emails at work
3. Be careful with emails at work

[achillea]

If you do get the boot perhaps as part of your leaving discussions you can get them to agree to give you some sort of reference? - if you have done a good job and been a good citizen up until this point then they may still help you with this. You can always resort to begging and crying... usually works for me!

[Euro-commuter]

Bear in mind a lot of places give good references just becuase they cant be aresed to do any different.

I got fired from my last 2 permie jobs (i'm nearly on par with MF) and I still got contracts.

By contrast I once got a bad reference from someone I hadn't given as a reference, in fact hadn't worked with, and didn't even know! Meanwhile my manager was very pleased with me and extended my contract repeatedly, but wasn't asked.

there is an element of randomness in all this.

[rootsnall]

I think formal references are a waste of space but the contractor type are usually over the phone and informal and allow the referee to give a decent impression of what they think of you. Hence you need to choose carefully !

I got one bad ref from a high up manager who had actually volunteered his services with a smile on his face when I left a contract, it was a year plus when I took him up on the offer and he said one or two not great things. When I looked into it he'd used me as a scapegoat in my absence for some cock up and obviously felt he had to stick to his story when giving a ref. I rang him up about it and he paniced and wouldn't talk to me, most odd !

[TheFaQQer]

Due to the craze for litigation, many employers now play safe giving a neutral response, very factual merely confirming the role performed and length of employment but tend to steer clear of personal traits. I seem to recall Leeds City Council were sued (successfully) several years ago for saying something along the lines of "Mr X was constantly late for work, his appearance was scruffy and not in line with what is expected and couldn't perform the job assigned to him."

If providing that kind of information which an employer would want to know is deemed unacceptable then you really have to question what is a reference worth, other than confirming you worked at the place that you have put on your CV.

I think it's more that companies fear that they may be held liable if anything goes wrong.

If a reference contains a false or unsubstantiated statement that damages the reputation of a former employee, he or she may be able to claim some damages for defamation. But the risk is slight, since there is no liability for libel if the employer believes the information in the reference is correct and given without malice.

The more important issue for companies is if they negligently provide a reference.

An employer will be liable if loss results from the employer's failure to exercise reasonable care in the preparation of a reference. The leading case is Spring v Guardian Assurance plc [1994] IRLR 460 which demonstrates that that the author of a reference owes a duty of care both:

* to the person about whom it is written, and
* to the recipient of the reference if the reference was carelessly favourable.

The reference must not give an unfair or misleading impression overall, even if its discrete components are factually correct.

Have a look here for more information about the legal position.

[BA to the Stars]

Due to the craze for litigation, many employers now play safe giving a neutral response, very factual merely confirming the role performed and length of employment but tend to steer clear of personal traits. I seem to recall Leeds City Council were sued (successfully) several years ago for saying something along the lines of "Mr X was constantly late for work, his appearance was scruffy and not in line with what is expected and couldn't perform the job assigned to him."

If providing that kind of information which an employer would want to know is deemed unacceptable then you really have to question what is a reference worth, other than confirming you worked at the place that you have put on your CV.

[Old Greg]

I've used the trusted colleague reference route a number of times, pick someone with Manager in their job title.

Have you thought about apologising to the person you think you've offended, can work wonders, if not you'll atleast know where you stand.

The advice from other posters is sensible. The apologising idea in particula is a good one, and generally you should try to rescue what you can before you leave. If they know you're leaving, make it clear that you want to do what you can to tie up pieces of work you're doing / hand over to whoever replaces you. Put in the extra hours if necessary to get everything done. Offer to leave a contact no. if they have any queries after you've gone. If you're performing a useful job, it will greatly reduce their stress at someone walking out leaving loose ends. Act professionally at all times.

There's a good chance that they'll be impressed and remember you as the guy who sent round the stupid email and then acted professionally before moving on, rather than the guy who sent the stupid email and p1ssed off, leaving them in the lurch. This may help with the reference, but it's a good idea anyway. It's a small world and you might bump into someone you've worked with again in a professional setting.

Good luck, mate. Let us know how it works out.

[rootsnall]

I've used the trusted colleague reference route a number of times, pick someone with Manager in their job title.

Have you thought about apologising to the person you think you've offended, can work wonders, if not you'll atleast know where you stand.

[Kyajae]

I've tried to get references from a senior employee in the past, but the company policy at the time was they weren't allowed, and only HR could supply the references.
Still its worth asking around though...

If my understanding is correct, employers cannot give a bad reference, only a neutral reference (i.e. bob Smith workerd here for x years, he did this role, etc). I don't know the position of refusal to give a reference.

At the end of the day, sending a joke email (assuming it didn't personally attack named persons) is hardly gross misconduct in most sensible people's eyes. You might just get 'some advisory words' in the modern corporate parlance.

[Cooperinliverp00l]

although i have had to supply reference details having checked with my nominated people they have never actually been chased for the reference.

I always use the line of most of my managment were contractors and have sinced moved on so i can only give you this number (hand over number of best friend acting as some sort of senior colleague)

[TheFaQQer]

A lot of larger companies will only confirm that you worked there between date X and date Y, in role Z.

Under the Data Protection Act, you have a right to see what information companies hold about you (there are various threads on here about it), so you can always see what the company said about you - consequently, many big companies will not take the risk that you might be able to sue for defamation.

Give the name of someone that you trust, who is senior enough to be a credible reference, and hope for the best. I left my permie job under a (much smaller) cloud, because I only gave 7 working days notice and the IT director wanted 4 weeks (my contract allowed immediate notice, because it was worded badly!). I give my old boss as a reference, and as long as it doesn't go any higher than him, I know I'll be right.

Anyway, spill the beans - what exactly did you write??? We could always do with a laugh!