Reply to: Long running contract

[northernladuk]

I will get in touch with QDOS again, cheers. They are a small company so April changes are not relevant - I will be carrying out my own determination as before.

Yes but no. I think it would be a safe bet the small exemption will be next to be abolished which I think will put you in an even more difficult situation. At a small company there has to be a much greater can do attitude as there isn't enough people to pass tasks on to. I think it's extremely difficult to stick to a single task and not be derailed as the company needs other things doing. You'll know better than us but I'll bet in most cases you'll either have an extremely woolly SOW to cover the 'any other tasks deemed necessary' scenario or you'll have a bum on seat contract that fails Direction and Control over and over again. I also imagine long stints will also suffer from scope creep as the project moves on so what you will deliver will change as the work moves on further looking like you are a part and parcel permie.

So yes, you are OK for April but after that? Who knows.

[cannon999]

The big issue you have is what is going to happen in April. Is the client likely to either issue with an inside SDS, blanket inside or refuse to engage with PSC?. If you are going to go outside to inside then you've got a big problem. There is the risk you'll automatically be on the hook for all the tax since the beginning of the engagement. The client is admitting to the tax man you are inside so hard to defend.

If you are outside and they are happy to carry on outside then you need to get your house in order. Get your contract checked by the likes of QDOS, get TLC35, review your working practices and make sure they are in order and, if you aren't already, move to a SoW type delivery contract and off the bum on seat. Become a proper supplier through their PSL and not body shopped.

If you've a long history at the client you need a really belt and braces approach. If they want you then a change of engagement style due to April changes is a reasonable request.

I will get in touch with QDOS again, cheers. They are a small company so April changes are not relevant - I will be carrying out my own determination as before.

[northernladuk]

The big issue you have is what is going to happen in April. Is the client likely to either issue with an inside SDS, blanket inside or refuse to engage with PSC?. If you are going to go outside to inside then you've got a big problem. There is the risk you'll automatically be on the hook for all the tax since the beginning of the engagement. The client is admitting to the tax man you are inside so hard to defend.

If you are outside and they are happy to carry on outside then you need to get your house in order. Get your contract checked by the likes of QDOS, get TLC35, review your working practices and make sure they are in order and, if you aren't already, move to a SoW type delivery contract and off the bum on seat. Become a proper supplier through their PSL and not body shopped.

If you've a long history at the client you need a really belt and braces approach. If they want you then a change of engagement style due to April changes is a reasonable request.

[cannon999]

Long projects aren't unheard of but the longer you remain in one place, the harder it gets to prove you're not an employee.

Why did you let your insurance lapse? That seems like a daft thing to do.

Had other things going on at the time (personal) and renewing insurances ended up at the bottom of the pile. Sounds silly I know..

[ladymuck]

Long projects aren't unheard of but the longer you remain in one place, the harder it gets to prove you're not an employee.

Why did you let your insurance lapse? That seems like a daft thing to do.

[cannon999]

Time to revisit this.. It is likely that I will be offered another extension. My concern is that the contract is running for a long time and I have only ever had 1 client (first through an agency, then direct - I bought myself out).

Just wondering if people have heard of software developers investigated for this and whether there is any case law in place already? Are there any insurances that you could recommend? I had QDOS IR35 insurance before but it expired last year. Are there any other reputable IR35 insurance providers?

[GhostofTarbera]

But is it irrelevant to the risk of being investigated?

And being struck by lighting is more likely

IPSE would never show members (or its cc council despite being asked several times) how many people were investigated each year

Some say No investigations in past 2 years



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[Old Greg]

Length of engagement is irrelevant (see the Cawdor Golf Club case), although obviously as time goes on the risk of drifting into employee-like behaviour needs to constantly be kept in check.

As long as you address (and avoid) the 3 pillars of employment (D&C, RoS, MoO) then HMRC can just jog on. Personally I'd also like a decent insurance policy behind me so that if they did come calling I could just sit back and let the experts do the talking.

But is it irrelevant to the risk of being investigated?

[HoofHearted]

Thanks, I guess the longer it goes on, the more 'itchy' I feel because the greater the exposure and the insentive for the taxman to come after me. Are you aware of any cases that have been brought to court against IT contractors who are software developers? The loan charge horror stories make me extra nervous where tax man is coming after people retrospectively..

Length of engagement is irrelevant (see the Cawdor Golf Club case), although obviously as time goes on the risk of drifting into employee-like behaviour needs to constantly be kept in check.

As long as you address (and avoid) the 3 pillars of employment (D&C, RoS, MoO) then HMRC can just jog on. Personally I'd also like a decent insurance policy behind me so that if they did come calling I could just sit back and let the experts do the talking.

[cannon999]

Assuming you're not using a scheme and are paying an appropriate salary/dividend split, then you should be OK. If you're not, but understand the implications as you allude to, then you're a fool and need to rectify that situation asap (not suggesting you are).

What will be more pertinent is managing the client's understanding of your relationship when they have to determine your IR35 status from next year.

The dividends are split with wife (I have been assured by the accountant that that's ok). I have never used any schemes and never claimed any dodgy expenses. They won't be determining my status next year, would they? They are a small company so I would still make the IR35 determination.

[LondonManc]

Thanks, I guess the longer it goes on, the more 'itchy' I feel because the greater the exposure and the insentive for the taxman to come after me. Are you aware of any cases that have been brought to court against IT contractors who are software developers? The loan charge horror stories make me extra nervous where tax man is coming after people retrospectively..

Assuming you're not using a scheme and are paying an appropriate salary/dividend split, then you should be OK. If you're not, but understand the implications as you allude to, then you're a fool and need to rectify that situation asap (not suggesting you are).

What will be more pertinent is managing the client's understanding of your relationship when they have to determine your IR35 status from next year.

[cannon999]

Yup. I'd agree. Head down and carry on.

Thanks, I guess the longer it goes on, the more 'itchy' I feel because the greater the exposure and the insentive for the taxman to come after me. Are you aware of any cases that have been brought to court against IT contractors who are software developers? The loan charge horror stories make me extra nervous where tax man is coming after people retrospectively..

[northernladuk]

Sounds to me like you have a pretty strong case to be outside IR35.

Use own equipment, from own company office, piece work, lack of MOO, not part and parcel (like work same number of hours as permies).

Not bullet proof, but no easy win for the tax inspector.

Yup. I'd agree. Head down and carry on.

[DimPrawn]

Sounds to me like you have a pretty strong case to be outside IR35.

Use own equipment, from own company office, piece work, lack of MOO, not part and parcel (like work same number of hours as permies).

Not bullet proof, but no easy win for the tax inspector.

[cannon999]

Little thing called IR35 and being part and parcel of the org... Some people ignore it and carry on regardless, others will see the impending IR35 problem, decide their time is up and goes find other work. So the purpose of IR35 is to handicap clients so that they can't keep good suppliers for a long time? Seems strange. So if I was producing snickers bars and selling them to a shop then that shop could only use my services for so long before I am an employee?


Could it still be done by a permie as an ongoing role though. The ability of the perms won't be a question in an investigation. Nobody is irreplacable but they would struggle to get a permie to do what I am doing. They would need another contractor.


So a bit like agile. Difficult to argue that's different from how anyone in an agile programme works and what a permie does without much more detail. This type of work is an ever expanding grey area for IR35. We argue it's small chunck of specialised work, HMRC argue it's just ongoing tasks given by an employer to an employee.


Contract is irrelevant in a case like this TBH. Getting enough tasks sounds very much like D&C and and I'll bet MoO is a problem as well, particularly if you end up billing for more than the work done. Might be difficult in an investigation you were brought in to deliver a product and then leave when the role just goes on and on until the it doesn't. Don't know enough to say if you've an issue here or not. I don't understand what you mean by billing for more work than done? I log my hours against each deliverable and that's what I bill.


But they see you as a common component of that service and a defacto go to. You are embeded with the piece of work as a permie would be? Are you part of the fabric of the programme or a specialised entity and do the client understand that an treat you as one. Part and parcel is about becoming one with the client kind of. Both sides getting too comfortable. I am the guy who performs certain tasks every so often but they are technical tasks which only I have the skills and knowledge to do.


If that's the case then I think you are fine. Just keep doing your diligence and carry on.

Re